The Writing Journey is So Chaotic with Ellen Oh

Ellen Oh, author of Jin Young, In Between (Crown Books for Young Readers), joins Matthew to talk about exploring the many ways that lead to an endpoint in the story.

Listen along:

About the book: Jin Young, In Between by Ellen Oh. Published by Crown Books for Young Readers.

In this follow-up to The Colliding Worlds Of Mine Lee, a boy discovers he can travel into parallel worlds to be with his girlfriend. But each time their paths collide, the fabric of their universes frays a little more. Is their love worth the unraveling of reality?

"Sincere, smart, and meta…."-Soman Chainani, author of THE SCHOOL FOR GOOD AND EVIL series

Jin’s whole world been turned upside down. Since meeting Mina inside her webcomic, Jin has discovered unbelievable things about his life:

1. He’s been living in a parallel universe.

2. His birth mother didn't abandon him.

3. He'll never be able to see Mina again. 

But then the impossible happens—Jin teleports to Mina’s world. But with every visit, cataclysmic weather threatens Jin’s world. And a mysterious lab seems way too interested in testing Jin’s new teleporting ability. Is Jin ready to risk it all for the girl he loves?

Ellen Oh, the award-winning author and a founding member of We Need Diverse Books delivers a grounded speculative fiction adventure that'll have readers swooning for the star-crossed romance.

More:

Visit Ellen Oh online at www.ellenoh.com 

Other helpful links:

• Ellen Oh at Boyds Mills

• The Writing Shorter Retreat: Why (and How) Less Can Be More - In the shifting publishing landscape, it seems that many people are discussing the need for more “short” books. How can creatives write shorter without sacrificing the necessary elements of a good story? And how can learning to write short make you a stronger writer overall? Join bestselling authors Hena Khan, Christina Soontornvat, Minh Lê, and Ellen Oh for a retreat that focuses on creating propulsive, vibrant stories where every page packs a punch. This award-winning faculty will share their knowledge of pacing, plot, concept generation, how to write visually, and much more. There will be ample time for you to try out their suggestions as you write and retreat on your own projects.

Learn more about Boyds Mills and their upcoming programs by visiting www.boydsmills.org. 

Transcript:

NOTE: Transcript created by Descript. I've attempted to clean up any typos, grammatical errors, and formatting errors where possible.

Ellen:  The world has always seemed to me like a vast toy shop. One of my favorite movies is Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, where you see Pee-Wee Herman, a man-child, in a world that's just full of possibility and wonder and opportunities for delight. Um, so yeah,  I think I was that kid who always had a project. I remember my next-door neighbor who, one, gave me a thesaurus when I was 10 years old. You could see there was something going on, 'cause I was always writing. And oh, she said, "You've always got a project going. You've always got a scheme going." And, yeah, she was right. 

Matthew: That is the voice of Ellen Oh, author of the Spirit Hunters, The House Next Door, and Haru, Zombie Dog Hero. Ellen has also edited a number of anthologies, including Flying Lessons, On the Block, and A Thousand Beginnings and Endings. Ellen’s latest book, Jin Young, In Between (Crown Books for Young Readers), is a sequel to The Colliding Worlds of Mina Lee, and it will have you rooting for love, while hoping it doesn’t cause the end of the world. 

Welcome back to the Children’s Book Podcast, where we celebrate the books and creators who help young readers feel seen, supported, and understood. This episode is brought to you in partnership with Boyds Mills, positively impacting kids by amplifying the voices of storytellers who inspire children to become their best selves.

I’m your host, Matthew Winner—teacher, librarian, writer, and a fan of kids.

Ellen wears a lot of hats, including past lives as a lawyer and an adjunct college instructor, serving as a founding member of We Need Diverse Books, and currently writing compelling middle grade and young adult fantasy, sci-fi, and horror. 

Here are a few of the things I learned in this conversation: 

NUMBER ONE: Ellen writes the conclusion first. She’s the author of a number of series and everybody has their own way of finding their way through writing a story. Starting at the end and exploring the many ways her characters can get there is what Ellen finds works best for her.

NUMBER TWO: Her writing journey is chaotic! I love this admission and I think it might be part of the secret recipe for Ellen to write such stakes-driven stories.

And NUMBER THREE: Ellen and others have noticed that kids can be intimidated by the length of books. And so, what do you do as a community if you don’t want to lose readers? You adapt! And you keep that reader at the front of your mind as you write the next book and the one after that. She and some colleagues have a workshop coming up at Boyds Mills where attendees will explore writing shorter, and it sounds like it’s gonna be quite an inspiring time!

So, a little about Jin Young, In Between (Crown Books for Young Readers) from the publisher:

“In this follow-up to The Colliding Worlds Of Mina Lee, a boy discovers he can travel into parallel worlds to be with his girlfriend. But each time their paths collide, the fabric of their universes frays a little more. Is their love worth the unraveling of reality?

Jin’s whole world has been turned upside down. Since meeting Mina inside her webcomic, Jin has discovered unbelievable things about his life:

1. He’s been living in a parallel universe.

2. His birth mother didn't abandon him.

3. He'll never be able to see Mina again. 

But then the impossible happens—Jin teleports to Mina’s world. But with every visit, cataclysmic weather threatens Jin’s world. And a mysterious lab seems way too interested in testing Jin’s new teleporting ability. Is Jin ready to risk it all for the girl he loves?

Ellen Oh, award-winning author and a founding member of We Need Diverse Books,  delivers a grounded speculative fiction adventure that'll have readers swooning for the star-crossed romance.”

Let’s wade into the chaos to accompany one writer on a journey to engage readers.

Please welcome Ellen Oh to the podcast.

Ellen: Okay. Hi, my name is Ellen Oh. I am a middle grade and young adult author. I have yet to write a picture book. It is my big bucket list dream. And the books that I wanted to talk a little bit about is my newest book called Jin Young: In Between, which is actually the sequel of Colliding Worlds of Mina Lee.

Matthew: I'm so glad you're here. Thank you. Friend, I'm so glad you're here. 

Ellen: I'm glad to be here, too. You know- Thank you for inviting me. 

Matthew: Oh my gosh, of course. We, this is not the first time you've been invited onto the show, but you and I have had busy [00:01:00] lives, which is not a bad thing. I love that, if anything, Boyds Mills was the one that were like, "You two should talk."

Yeah, we should. It was great. I'm grateful to run in similar circles as you. And as a librarian I'm grateful to be a p- My favorite 

Ellen: circle. 

Matthew: Oh, that's very sweet. I was just gonna say I'm grateful to be a partner in Reaching Readers with you. But that's, thank you. You said it even better. 

Ellen: It's true. 

Matthew: Good.

I think we all work hard, but it's really a wonderful thing when we can see- Oh, yeah ... and trust how hard others are working for each other. 

Ellen: And I say this at every presentation that I give. I, when I was growing up, school librarians were my heroes. Oh. And that has never changed for me. I love all librarians, but school librarians especially, I could not have survived middle school without my school librarians, period. 

Matthew: Ah. 

Ellen: So very special very, important circle for me. 

Matthew: Have you told them? [00:02:00] Have you had a chance to 

Ellen: tell- To tell the 

Matthew: librarian? The school librarians?

Ellen: The school librarians at that. I- 

Matthew: Yes. 

Ellen: I have it's been too long. 

Matthew: I hear you. I have a fantasy in my head of, I'll say it this way. I'm aware as an elementary school librarian that often we are an emotion memory for kids. 

But the real "Oh, this person really helped change my life," often comes in high school, which is not a bad thing.

Right. 

But I also think we don't get the chance often enough to say, "You really had an impact on me." 

Yeah. 

And so I think about that actively maybe as I write, but also as I've been a librarian now for 20 years. I think about, I still know the names of my teachers. I don't know even where I would start to find them.

But if they're anywhere near where I grew up, I could probably narrow it down. And just send a note to say, "I'm okay, and I grew up, and- 

... 

Matthew: I've got your fingerprints all over me from [00:03:00] raising me, helping to raise me right." 

Ellen: Oh, yeah. I... You know what? Now you've inspired me. I'm gonna have to do a little bit of digging.

It's such a long time ago, but you know- I hear you ... I'm Gen X, so you know, this is how long ago? 30 plus years, 35 years ago. 

Matthew: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was born in '81. I realize how far back I'm going. 

Ellen: Oh, longer for me, so 40 years. More. 40 plus. 

Matthew: Yeah. If nothing else, to know that we carry those people with us throughout our life- Absolutely

is a great thing. Ellen, what's giving you hope today? 

Ellen: Oh, wow. I I think that in a different year, that question has different impact. This is a particular year where that question is hard, right? And I can't give a one single answer, and I think what it is I have to find hope in all the little things that bring joy and happiness.

The fact that I can [00:04:00] get up in the morning and find those moments of joy give me hope because, there were moments where it just felt like everything was dark and everything was bad and that's a scary place to be. So now I get up and every time I have just, I get a f- my friend's book, and I'm like, oh my gosh, my friend just published this amazing book.

I get book mail. I go to a school. I meet readers. I meet people who say, "I love your book," right? I get fan mail. I meet librarians, and librarians are, like, great joy. And English teachers and librarians, they're just such great joy to be around, right? Talking about books, talking about what we can do for kids.

Yes, there are the moments we have to talk about what's happening in the world, and book bans, and how we have to fight back. There's also hope in the fact that we can get into those moments, with our friends and with our fri- with people who are in the community and, who know how important it is right now to stand up and [00:05:00] fight.

That gives me hope, too. So there's all those little things, and just having a cup of tea with a donut sometimes just makes me so joyous, and that's also a hopeful moment that I can have that. So that's how I would answer that question now. I would have answered that question so differently in a different year.

Matthew: I started asking that question when I felt ... at one of the moments recently when I felt the world get dark. And you picked up on what I was trying to accomplish, which is where are you finding it in this moment that I'm catching you? Much this recording is going to capture how you're talking about your book today.

But in a year from now, we could talk about the same book and it would be a different conversation because you would have met different readers, and you would have lived life a little longer with it. I'm also catching you during a hard week in Kidlit- 

Yeah ... where a lot of us w- [00:06:00] were really working hard to use our voices to protect everyone else.

And we don't need to skirt around it. I'm not trying to avoid that. B- but to be able to be with someone and recognize the value of the person in front of me- 

Ellen: Thank you ... 

Matthew: and likewise, right? 

Ellen: Exactly. 

Same. 

Matthew: Is hopeful. So I appreciate those little moments. I appreciate that, Ellen. Okay, so I have a really fun, weird

I have a, I get to be your reader for the next- 

Ellen: Okay ... 

Matthew: bunch of minutes. And I'm gonna tell you a really interesting thing that you would not recommend people do, but readers come all different ways. Okay. This is what I'm gonna tell you. Number one, I'm gonna tell you straight up, because I think I told you this when I met you at Gaithersburg.

I love your books. I don't often read them, because I get scared very easily. 

Oh, 

I scare easily. So when books come along that aren't scary, I'm cool. I like the n- I like the sci-fi fantasy. We can ... I can hang with that. I once told Tr- Tracy Baptiste how I love The Jumbies and how I still am fearful because of reading The Jumbies.

And I love that, and I love being able to [00:07:00] share that with my readers. But I want to tell you, I read Jyn X Yong In Between and did not read the first book. Oh, and you were okay. I listened to the audiobook- ... and I didn't l- listen to the first book. And it was cool to have that experience, because I was very aware that this is a sequel to another book, and I was picking up the pieces- But without giving anything away, I just wanna compliment you that you were thinking about this kind of reader too when you wrote that book, and that's a cool craft thing that I don't think I've had a chance to talk to anyone else before.

You pulled it off, Ellen. That's wonderful. I have no doubt that you're a terrific storyteller in all different ways. But in this way, I wanna commend you for being able to write a sequel That you should read the first book to read. But also that you've, you haven't shut readers out who haven't read that first book.

Gosh, and your audiobook reader was fantastic too. 

Ellen: I [00:08:00] yes, absolutely. 

Matthew: Holy cow. Before we get further, do you mind book talking Jin Yong in between? 

Ellen: Not at all. 

Matthew: Maybe catch up with Colliding Worlds also just so we know big picture what's going on. But yeah, and then we'll jump into it.

Ellen: Sure. So I'm so glad you, I'm so glad you did that because that actually was my goal in writing, in Jin Yong, being able to, have somebody who picked this up and be like, "Oh yeah, I can still follow the story completely, but maybe now I'm really interested in going back and seeing how it started," right?

Yeah. So Colliding Worlds with Mina Lee is all about Mina, who is a webcomic artist, and she creates a webcomic world, and then suddenly gets sucked into that world, and storyline that she put into it is wreaking havoc, and it's up to her to fix it. So the ending of Colliding Worlds, of course, then jumps into Jin Yong, and I will tell you my favorite thing after Colliding Worlds was published was all of the yelling emails and DMs that I [00:09:00] got from readers who were like, "Oh my gosh, how could you do this to us?"

And I'm- How could 

Matthew: you? 

Ellen: I'm so not sorry, 'cause that's actually one of my favorite kinds of emails and letters to get. So we open with Jin Yong, and they've been separated. That's just, like, why you have a sequel, right? You want now... The first book has separated your couple. Now you want to get them together.

And so Jin Yong is all about how he's, h- what happens when the person that you love the most in the world is separated not just by countries, but by an entire world, right? And one of the funniest things that I'll tell you is that when I wrote the concept for Colliding Worlds and Jin Yong, it was based on the m- the music video, I'm a Gen X-er, Take On Me by Aha, right?

Favorite song. Amazing. Favorite music video. 

Matthew: Oh, yeah. 

Ellen: What I didn't know was that I was actually writing a multiverse [00:10:00] book, and I had to study physics to understand how, quantum physics and quantum mechanics works. So yeah, I did a lot of research. I don't know that it shows in the books, but I did.

I learned a lot about quantum mechanics. And l- yes, I don't know the possibilities of, alternate universes and all that, but in theory it's fascinating. 

Matthew: Oh, yeah. 

Ellen: And that's what went into Jin Yong and the idea. 

Matthew: That, that's so cool. I love, speaking of multiverses you're setting me up to say this, which is beautiful.

I love that... I told you I just finished Jin Yong today. I was, like, an hour away from finishing it on the audiobook. I did not realize that hour was gonna In my experience, turn into Everything Everywhere All at Once. Oh. Where we're just jumping through wormholes to get... I was blown away at how fast that end of [00:11:00] story was happening.

It was incredible. Incredible. I can only imagine your readers being like, "When is the movie being made? 'Cause I wanna see that scene, Ellen." But wow, also compliments on being able to write something to land that plane in such a way that it, it causes your readers to feel so much like they just wanna know what happens.

That's so cool. Did you sell Colliding Worlds as a two book, or was it one of these we did one book and we had to see how it did? 

Ellen: No, I did sell it as two books. 

Matthew: Awesome. Did you- So- Did you plot it as two books? 

Ellen: Yes. Like- 

Matthew: Okay ... 

Ellen: for me, I always write my conclusion first. Okay. So I had always known even if the story ha- I've always considered writing a book going on a trip, right?

I need to know where I'm going, but the way I get there can be, like, different. I might have started by walking, and then I'm driving, and I'm taking the long way, and suddenly now I'm gonna go fast [00:12:00] and I'll fly. It can be so many different ways of getting to your end point, right? But my end point never changes.

And I don't know if that's, true for any other writer out there, but that, for me, if I don't have my conclusion, I can't write the story. I knew exactly what the conclusion was gonna be for both books, 'cause that's the- For both books ... I wrote that- Yeah ... like that. And then in Jin Young, the...

I have to say, for Colliding Worlds, it didn't change as much from my outline, but Jin

Young's story changed a lot from how I thought it would be to how it ended up coming out. So 

Matthew: Did it, it change having written "Colliding Worlds," or it changed as you were writing the second book? 

Ellen: It changed because of how Colliding Worlds came out, and getting to know their personalities more.

'Cause- 

Matthew: Yeah ... 

Ellen: in an outline- ... you don't h- know the personalities as well as you should, right? But as you write the book, now their personalities are alive. And so things that I thought could happen in [00:13:00] Jinyoung didn't make as much sense now knowing his personality,

Matthew: yeah. Oh, you got to know the person and then you were like, "They wouldn't do that."

Ellen: Exactly. I- And then also it wa- I wanted it very much to a story that really raised the stakes so much higher in the second book. 

Matthew: Yeah. 

Ellen: Because it was almost an impossibility, so how do you have a happy ending when

it's such impossible odds? 

Matthew: Yeah. 

Ellen: You just raise the 

Matthew: stakes.

I, I literally was thinking that the... I'm like, "How? I don't understand. Where are we going with this?" "What are we doing?" The... I think I can say, without spoiling it for anyone that will listen, and I hope they do, I hope they listen on audio too, 'cause the af- audiobook is fantastic. But I loved, as I was trying to get my footing and understand what was going on in this book, I loved that the connection I made was, oh, my word, this is their love, it...

They're separated by a wormhole. They're two, two versions of the same universe are [00:14:00] separated. But for Jinyoung to see Mina means causing environmental havoc- ... on his own world. Will you cause the destruction of everything you know for the love that you know is possible? And that was incredibly compelling.

But also set the table for, what if other people then figure out that you have this power and they wanna harness it? And that, that was... I... Maybe we're supposed to hate Vance from the moment we meet him, but right away, I was like, "Ugh, please, get r- please get rid of this guy." And then you were like...

And he started a satellite company called Storm Link, and I'm like- ... "No. No, Ellen, no."

Ellen: I have this talk and I'm like, "Writing is always political. It doesn't matter-" Yeah "... what genre you write." No 

Matthew: doubt. 

Ellen: No doubt. 'Cause you are recording the times that you are living [00:15:00] in- 

Matthew: Yes, you are ... 

Ellen: and just, 

Matthew: can you... I don't know what was the story for you as you were thinking of this story.

You said you knew the journey, you knew where you wanted to end it. Can you

remember what that seed was? What was like, I don't know what would you call it, like an elevator pitch or something? What was it? Because the way you were able to raise those t- those stakes was incredible. And I would imagine without- Without having the idea in your head, I would imagine it could potentially get out of control really fast.

You could write yourself out of the story and not know where to go. You wrote with a lot of control, with a lot of decisiveness, and that is really reassuring, I think, for a reader reading sci-fi trying to imagine something that is unimaginable. 

Ellen: Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so glad to hear you say that because I think that the writing journal- journey for me is so much more chaotic than it seems.

Matthew: That's cool. That's a great [00:16:00] answer. 

Ellen: It's "Oh my gosh, is this gonna work? I have no idea. I'm just gonna try it." Then you reread it and go, "No, this is total garbage. What was I thinking?" And you delete everything, and you have to start all over again. It's a chaotic process.

I'm sorry. I don't know how people are very strict and organized in their writing. The only organization in my writing is the fact that I do outline. 

Matthew: I wonder if that's your ambition, that chaos is just your ambition to write such a big story to just push us to imagine other worlds. 

Ellen: Oh, thank you.

I ... You know what? I don't think of the story as big, but I do think of the world as very the world itself being the character in that everything that's happening, worlds colliding and all of this- Yeah ... that was almost its own... the black hole is this character 'cause it's just

It means something. It's just ominous in there. Yeah. And I like working off of these [00:17:00] feelings, and I've always had more of a problem with character development than plot, believe it or not. The plots come to me, and then the danger is easier. But then trying to write characters with how they're feeling in particular moments and their emotions, that's always a little bit harder for me.

So I'm very plot-centric. 

Matthew: Interesting. 

Ellen: Cool. 

Matthew: Yeah. I think it takes all types in writing, doesn't it? It's interesting to know what drives you and what challenges you. We have mutual friends through Boyd Mills, and I heard that you do a writing shorter retreat, and I would love to hear more about what this is.

I, I know you to be a person that, that collects short stories as well as writes short stories. But tell me more about what Writing Shorter is, and maybe even how you got connected with Boyd Mills in the first place. 

Ellen: Okay. So actually, this will be my very first time there. 

Matthew: Is it? 

Ellen: And I- Cool ... I've wanted to go for a long time Oh, 

Matthew: so 

Ellen: cool

I couldn't, the retreats that I wanted to go to before were [00:18:00] sold out, so I could never go. But now I get to go and teach at one with my friends, which is amazing. So I'm gonna be there with Minh Le, Hena Khan, Christina Soontornvat, and we're doing it all together. Oh my 

Matthew: gosh, these are my friends too.

Yeah. 

Ellen: Yes. 

Matthew: That's 

Ellen: so 

Matthew: cool ... 

Ellen: you should come. And the, what we wanted to talk about was, it related to what we're seeing, in, in schools now, which is, every place I go, I'll hear a teacher say that the first thing a kid will do when they grab a book now is turn it to the back and see how long the book is.

Interesting. And if it's over 200 and, over 250 pages, 200 pages, they'll put it back. So they are being very much intimidated by the length of books. And it goes hand-in-hand with- Social media, right? With phone use, it basically the short form of entertainment has taken over for everybody.

I know I'm addicted to TikTok, right? That's where [00:19:00] I see all my s- Chinese drama shows. Completely addicted. I think that mentality, though, is very difficult, because when your mind... I- there was, like, this study, very interesting study, about how your mind starts to acclimate so that you start to then expect all your en- entertainment to be in short bursts, and that's what gives you that kind of dopamine rush.

Matthew: Yes. 

Ellen: And that's very harmful for more of the long form of readings, right? So we don't wanna lose readers. That's a given. How can we invite them back? I've always believed that short stories is a really great way to... Even before we had this kind of influx of short form entertainment, I've always thought short story's a great way to bring reluctant readers and kids who are intimidated by, long books to to bring them into reading, to find an author [00:20:00] that they like, a voice that they like, and then take that and maybe experiment with their longer books.

Also I think in, especially in the middle grade space, I do think that shorter books are easier for kids, right? Again, same reasoning right now. And my more recent novels, middle grade novels, have been shorter. Haru Ne- Haru, Zombie Dog Hero, The House Next Door, they're all short books. They're easy to read in one sitting.

They're, or two. It... They, the kid doesn't feel scared away by the, holding a book that's so fat, right? And I think that we want that kind of softball approach to reading to bring kids back to reading, and I, that's what we wanna do, is to teach writers the importance and how to tell a story effectively in the short form.

That's what we, that's what we're doing in this class. 

Matthew: I can [00:21:00] tell you as a librarian that we see a similar thing. We see that intimidation, and a lot of it we talk about in schools is that they lack- reading endurance. That it's hard to stay with it. Their mind wanders, it's difficult to retain, comprehend, things like that.

It is not their fault. They are a product of- 

... 

Their surroundings now. It's a different time now than when we grew up, period. I appreciate hearing that you and Min and Christina and, and- Hannah ... and Hannah Khan are working to meet kids where they are by helping writers meet them where they are.

Thank you. 

Ellen: Of course. That's why I love my anthologies. And my last couple have been like the, the intertwined stories- 

Matthew: Yeah ... 

Ellen: which I think kids find really fascinating, because they can read one story, be finished with it, but know that if they read another one, hey, they might see some [00:22:00] familiar characters coming through.

Matthew: That's great. So that- That's a great point. 

Ellen: Yeah. So that's what we're doing, and that, we're gonna teach short story- 

Matthew: Love it ... 

Ellen: anthologies. 

Matthew: I hope you have many attendees and that the stories that come from it- 

That'll be great ... reach many libraries. Hey, how are things at We Need Diverse Books?

Well- Going strong? Going great? 

Ellen: It seems like it's going strong. I've stepped down from administration, which- From- ... has been a great- 

Matthew: Good for you to step down from admin ... 

Ellen: yeah, so it's been a long time there. The only thing I'm really working on now for WNDB is our next short story anthology. Awesome.

Is gonna be horror anthology. 

Matthew: Ooh, of course 

Ellen: it is. Yeah. 

Matthew: I'll enjoy the cover. It'll be great. 

Ellen: It w- it will be great, yes, with some amazing authors, so we're ex- pretty excited for that. 

Matthew: That's so cool. Good for you. Good for you. I have seen I've been around since We Need Diverse Book started. I've been around longer than that, granted.

Yeah. 

But it's been great, Ellen, to see the work that you and others [00:23:00] have helped to make in our libraries. I g- I'm not so naive to to think that librarians are also not helping, but wow I feel like I became a librarian at such a great time, that everyone just wants to partner. And it feels so good to be able to partner with libraries, other libraries in my county and in the country, as well as other authors and other illustrators to help center children.

We talk about hope. I tend to be a person that looks for hope a lot because I see it in the classroom every single day with every class that visits me. And I say to you that it just matters a lot, the work that you do and that you've continued to do and the people you've drawn close to you to help with that work as well.

Thank you. 

Ellen: Of course. I al- always appreciate the community at large because I always say we have the best community. Yeah. 94% of us are the best community. 

Matthew: I think if any one [00:24:00] of us, and some of us have been in other communities w- I think we would be shocked to realize there are communities where people don't have each other's backs, where people don't so willingly offer themselves, offer their voices, offer their feedback.

And where I know that if I had a book come out tomorrow that also was about

wormholes, that you would root me on because you know that this reader here and this writer here couldn't possibly write the same thing that you have with your own lived experience. There's enough room for all of us, and more importantly, there's enough readers that need each of our voices.

Exactly. Because you write for one kid. You can't write for all of them. 

Ellen: Exactly. 

Matthew: Yeah. Yeah. Ellen, I have the esteemed privilege of seeing children soon, and and of asking folks like you about messages that I do share with those kids that I see. So I'd like to close our time by asking [00:25:00] you, that I will see a library full of children soon, is there a message that I can bring to them from you?

Ellen: I know it's trite, but I just I want them to love books as much as I do. And to always remember that there's a story for everybody out there. There truly is. And now more than ever, maybe not the perfect story, but there's gonna be something that they can hold onto and call it theirs.

So to please keep looking and reading the books. Read widely. Try everything. You're gonna find books to fall in love with. And I, and that's what I want. I want them to fall in love with books.

Matthew: Thank you to Ellen Oh for joining me on the Children’s Book Podcast. 

You can pick up your own copy of Jin Young, In Between (Crown Books for Young Readers) wherever books are found. Consider supporting independent bookstores by shopping through Bookshop.org. Jin Young, In Between is also available as an audiobook at your local library or through Libro.fm, where your purchase also supports independent bookstores in the process! 

Our podcast logo was created by Duke Stebbins (https://stebs.design/). 

Our music is by Podington Bear. 

Podcast hosting by Libsyn. 

You can support the show and buy me a coffee at matthewcwinner.com or by clicking the link in the show notes.

And on that note…

Be well. And read on.