Wanting to Write a Child’s Next Obsession with Dan Santat

Dan Santat, author of A Fishboy Named . . . Sashimi (Roaring Brook Press), joins Matthew to talk about creating worlds that readers will want to believe.

Listen along:

About the book: A Fishboy Named . . . Sashimi by Dan Santat. Published by Roaring Brook Press.

"From the mega-talented Dan Santat comes a hilarious and beautifully illustrated tale of friendship, adventure and mystery. Sashimi is FRESH!!!" -Dav Pilkey, creator of Dog Man and Captain Underpants

He's funny. He's (too) friendly. He's... a fishboy named SASHIMI!

A new, graphic novel series from bestseller and Caldecott Medal winner Dan Santat.

In the town of Barnacle Bay, a creature lurks. He’s come from the ocean, in search of others like him.

To fit in with humans, Sashimi sneaks into an elementary school and pretends to be a student. But he’s clearly a fish out of water!

When Sashimi finds out the whole town is on the hunt for the Beast of Barnacle Bay—a creature who sounds a lot like Sashimi—hijinks ensue! Fortunately, with the help of a new friend and the class goldfish, Sashimi figures out a way to stay afloat.

Perfect for fans of Bad Guys, Sharkdog, and The Investigator series!

More:

Visit Dan Santat online at www.instagram.com/dsantat 

Learn more about Boyds Mills and their upcoming programs by visiting www.boydsmills.org. 

Transcript:

NOTE: Transcript created by Descript. I've attempted to clean up any typos, grammatical errors, and formatting errors where possible.

Dan:  The beauty of it is that when I'm writing, when I'm writing humor, a lot of it can be these silly jokes for kids. But I also, it's very important for me to write for the parents and the teachers who are putting it in the libraries.

I have a hard time. Like not trying to share the laughter with everybody else.

Matthew: That is the voice of Dan Santat, the author of Beekle: The Unimaginary Friend, After the Fall, and A First Time for Everything. Dan has a brand new middle grade graphic novel series! The first book is called A Fishboy Named . . . Sashimi (Roaring Brook Press) and it is a hilarious, mysterious, page-turning seaside romp.

Welcome back to the Children’s Book Podcast, where we celebrate the books and creators who help young readers feel seen, supported, and understood. This episode is brought to you in partnership with Boyds Mills, positively impacting kids by amplifying the voices of storytellers who inspire children to become their best selves.

I’m your host, Matthew Winner—teacher, librarian, writer, and a fan of kids.

Dan Santat’s back! And this book made me chortle in public places. Ha!  

Here are a few of the things I learned in this conversation: 

NUMBER ONE: Dan has loved urban myths his whole life. Framing his latest series around a mysterious monster in a small seaside town felt like something he’s been playing with for years.

NUMBER TWO: Sashimi is Dan’s id. You know how Sigmund Freud gave us the concept of the id, the ego, and the superego? This is Dan, gills to tail. 

And NUMBER THREE: Dan wants to write a child’s next obsession, that book series they cannot put down and are always checking shelves for a new installment. And in creating the world of Sashimi, he created a world you want to believe in. 

So, a little about A Fishboy Named . . . Sashimi (Roaring Brook Press) from the publisher:

“From the mega-talented Dan Santat comes a hilarious and beautifully illustrated tale of friendship, adventure and mystery. Sashimi is FRESH!!!" -Dav Pilkey, creator of Dog Man and Captain Underpants

He's funny. He's (too) friendly. He's... a fishboy named SASHIMI!

A new, graphic novel series from bestseller and Caldecott Medal winner Dan Santat.

In the town of Barnacle Bay, a creature lurks. He’s come from the ocean, in search of others like him.

To fit in with humans, Sashimi sneaks into an elementary school and pretends to be a student. But he’s clearly a fish out of water!

When Sashimi finds out the whole town is on the hunt for the Beast of Barnacle Bay—a creature who sounds a lot like Sashimi—hijinks ensue! Fortunately, with the help of a new friend and the class goldfish, Sashimi figures out a way to stay afloat.

Perfect for fans of Bad Guys, Sharkdog, and The Investigator series!”

Let’s get obsessed with our guest!

Please welcome Dan Santat to the podcast.

Matthew: [00:00:00] Dan, whenever you're ready. Could you please introduce yourself? Hi, my name is Words You use to describe yourself, and I'm the author of, and please do name whatever you'd like. 

Dan: Hi, my name is Dan Santat. I'm an author illustrator of the 2015 Caldecott medal winning book, the Adventures of Beekle, the Un Imaginary Friend After the Fall, how My Or How Humpty Dumpty got back up again.

The my personal memoir a first time for everything which won the 2023 National Book Award and my current work, a Fish Boy named Sashimi. It's a pleasure to be here. 

Matthew: Glad to have you back, man. Can I ask you, what's giving you hope today? 

Dan: What's giving me hope today? If we're going to think about shimmers of light my youngest son just got accepted into college.

And he has this wonderful girlfriend of two years and I see him as a confident person who, [00:01:00] I'm just thrilled to see him finally standing on his two own, two feet, going to see the world on his own. And he, especially, he has someone in his life outside of the family that he has this unconditional love for.

And it just, it that gives me hope. 

Matthew: That's beautiful, man. Since we've last talked 

Dan: it's 

Matthew: been a while. My kids, my kid's 15 now, and we're starting to see, I could probably describe some things that you were like, I've been there. And it's. It's incredible. Yeah. It's a beautiful gift.

So I'm glad. Thank you for giving that back. It's beautiful. 

Dan: Yeah, of course. 

Matthew: So a Fish Boy named Sashimi Mind, giving us a book talk for those folks that haven't encountered it yet. 

Dan: Yeah. I guess the quick summary of the premise is it's about a little sea creature boy who is alone out in the world.

And then he encounters, he hears this. He hears about this urban myth about this creature called the beast of Barnacle Bay, and it vaguely [00:02:00] fits his description. And so out of curiosity, he decides to go to this place called Barnacle Bay, and he sneaks into an elementary school and he goes to the Lost and found, and he gets everything that he needs.

Clothes, a place to sleep in the classroom. Even food. He eats fish flakes and he just, he embeds himself into this classroom and he uses that as a cover for the duration of the period while he's in Barnacle Bay searching for this beast. And while he is in this town, he is encountering all kinds of colorful characters going on all kinds of adventures that you wouldn't expect, and.

No matter how long it takes to find the beast, he is settled in this fact that he's not alone. And I think the best description of Sini is if you were to take a [00:03:00] Freudian, description of him, Freud was talking about the id, the ego and the super ego 

Matthew: uhhuh, 

Dan: and the ID being like the most childish, like no filter inner person that you are, that just blurts out whatever sashimi is my id. And it started out with just a simple sketch of this sea creature with these cold dead eyes that just stared into nowhere. And a lot of the jokes were just, everyone just relying on his silence. Just praising him and showering with him like, oh, you're such a good listener.

Sashimi. You're the best. Oh, sashimi. Oh, I love that cologne that you're wearing. I don't know what it is, but it reminds me of the ocean, and I originally thought it would be a good picture book idea, and as I flesh it out. I realized it was just the same joke over and over again.

I said, no, [00:04:00] there's gotta be more to this. And then I just started making little mini comics to myself of little observations that he had about the world. So for example and this isn't in book one, but in book two he has some feelings about. This fizzy carbonated water called faux water which is a play on LaCroix, which I absolutely despise and sashimi gives us 2 cents on that.

Other things are just, commentary on things at school. School budget cuts, for instance. They, in the beginning of the first sashimi book. The teacher, Ms. Wilcox holds up two fingers. I think probably, oh yeah. 5% of the schools in this country can relate to quieting a room down with two fingers.

And when I was a kid we used to do that, but it was with three fingers. And I said, okay, I'm going to incorporate this joke into this. 'cause I think most people in this country get it. And [00:05:00] sashimi sees the teacher holding up the two fingers, all the kids holding up the two fingers, whole room quiets down.

And he says, what's with the two fingers? And Ms. Wilcox says, oh, this is what we do to quiet everybody down. And he says yeah, but why two fingers? And Ms. Wilcox replies the way I would reply saying it used to be three fingers. But because of school budget cuts, we had to lose a finger.

So now it's only two fingers. 

Matthew: I love that part because 

Dan: literally 

Matthew: mark that page because the school budget cuts were down to, that's 

Dan: great. And so the beauty of it is that when I'm writing, when I'm writing humor, a lot of it can be these silly jokes for kids. But I also, it's very important for me to write for the parents and the teachers who are putting it in the libraries.

I have a hard time. Like not trying to share the laughter with everybody else. I'll even, when I do, I've been doing school presentations for years and I always make it a point to give a little something to the adults because they have to sit there [00:06:00] and they have to listen to me talk to kids.

They, I want to occasionally just make a little step outside to give them a little chuckle and really my intent is. The, you've all seen that statistic where, reading for pleasure has gone down 40% in 20 years. 

Matthew: Sure. 

Dan: And I, my focus isn't about start reviews. It's not about, writing an award-winning book.

I just want, I want, in an a crude way to say it, I wanna write a child's next addiction. I wanna write something that kids are like, I can't get enough of this. I want, I love these jokes. I want more because I grew up on Mad Magazine and if there was anything that I learned from Mad Magazine was wit, and if you do it right, you know there is a way for kids to develop a sense of humor.

And in this world [00:07:00] right now. You doom scroll all the time and people are getting to a point where they're avoiding people or they're avoiding social media, and I just think that's very, I think that's sad because I don't know whether it's true or not. They say that human beings are meant to connect, and I want this to be something that kids.

Can read, and as a series goes on book two, book three, book four, there's going to be these little inside jokes that carry on from each book. You are going to see the quiet coyote, the two finger thing carry on in each joke. And everyone's going to understand that reference if they stay with it.

And, all these little jokes just compile on each other and they just they become these inside jokes that, a community will look at and they will say. Oh my gosh. You've been reading sashimi. 'cause I know that reference. I think I'm thinking of like Simpsons, I'm thinking [00:08:00] of Arrested Development where just these jokes just build on top of each other, but you never stop referencing them.

That was a long, that was a long answer to a simple question. I think. 

Matthew: I think it's a joyful thing. I'm hearing two things. If I can give two things back to you. One to be able to write for the adult. In a work that's primarily aimed at a middle grade audience is different from me.

I haven't heard someone talking about writing for the adult in that audience. I get that a lot in picture books 'cause we're communal. I don't mean writing for the adult, but maybe what I do mean in this case is not excluding the adult knowing. 

Dan: So let me, okay, so let me rephrase that because I think there is that whole saying of don't talk down to children 'cause they're smarter than you think.

And. I do find that if I do a little bit of sense of humor that would appeal to an adult, and I'm not saying this is blue humor. I'm not saying, it's crass, but it's a little inside something that, [00:09:00] you know, as a parent you'd say, oh yeah, waiting in line at the, the car pickup is, not the best.

Little things like that. A kid will get it. It's just maybe not something a kid will think about on their daily routine, but it will be. Oh yeah. That's probably why my parents are so annoyed when they have to pick me up. 'cause there's this huge car line has to, it's going it's giving the kids the opportunity to see the perspective from their teachers, their faculty, other people in their community.

It's, the idea is. Trying to like get different points of view and just saying it out loud and finding the humor in all of it. 

Matthew: I think it's wonderful to give kids the opportunity to understand a little bit 

Dan: Those 

Matthew: grownups in their lives. 'cause I think. Judging by the children that I'm around every day, they are trying to figure us out.

Yeah. And sometimes they're like, adults are just weird and we are. But it's fun to nod to those weird things that adults go through. But where all, where also I was maybe [00:10:00] working around in my brain was this acknowledgement of the grownup. To me feels I guess again, 'cause I'm working on the other end of it, right?

I'm in libraries I'm hand selling books to kids all the time at book fairs as well. And so often I think some parents may feel like it's just another comic or it's just another picture book, or it's just another, it's just another whatever, fill in whatever they, some parents feel is limiting to what.

They see their kids reading and instead it's, you know what? Pick your kid's reading through all the dogman books. Pick one up and read it. It's like super funny and very compelling. I know you're friends with Dave, which is why I'm bringing up his name. By the way, I've just this week got more kids onto Ricky Ricotta.

Always like when it's your art remakes colorizations of the Ricky Ricotta books. I'm like, this is. So fun to see that still stuff is resonating. But I say that [00:11:00] because I've never talked to Dave. I've never met Dave Ey in my life, but he, more than almost any other writer I know very blatantly on the page, understands children in a way that I'm like, if you would just read one of his books I think you as the adult right away, would be like, oh, no wonder kids are reading this. They feel like there's a friend saying, I see you. I see you, and I'm gonna entertain you and we're gonna laugh together. Oh, but I see you. 

Dan: Absolutely. I like to say this so you take someone like Mo Willem, right?

The pigeon books, the elephant piggy books, he knows very well how to write two children. 

Matthew: Oh yeah. 

Dan: He just has a very good psychology about that. But you take someone like Dave Pike and the best way I can describe Dave is he is a child whisperer. 

Matthew: Cool. 

Dan: He will say something to a child and it's just.

A hundred percent natural to him. He will say something to a child and this child will lock eyes on that man and they will say, I will [00:12:00] consume every word coming out of your mouth. Awesome. 'cause you are speaking straight to my soul. That's not, you cannot teach this. He is on another level and it just comes natural to him.

So there is only going to be one Dave Pelkey. 

Matthew: That's 

Dan: because it's not a coincidence. You would say something like, captain Underpants was lightning in a bottle, but he has captured lightning in a bottle twice it, it's not it. He could do something else after Dogman and I guarantee it would be just as immensely successful.

Matthew: I love that. I hear in you that's where I was trying to tie that connection is that way that you're engaging and talking up to your readers is just great. I want to specifically talk about the sort of old sea town of it. Yes. Yeah. With regards to sashimi. 'cause I love, that was my one.

I love your humor and I don't wanna sit here and be like, I listen to enough [00:13:00] podcasts. Comedy podcast to be like, to not sit here and be like, Dan, tell me how you stay funny. I just am delighted by people staying funny 'cause I know how many edits things take and I love that. And I hope one day when I'm writing something that I think is funny that after all the edits it'll stay funny.

But to do for me, I love like a good, creepy seaside town story I mentioned to you in the notes coming into this about Jaws and I mentioned about this wonderful middle grade novel I read to kids, our hand sell to kids all the time called Aliman by Thomas Taylor. I love. Playing in that world. Was that, is that a.

A young Dan childhood thing of the seaside monster story. Where does that come from? 

Dan: No, so there are a couple things. One, I've always been obsessed with Cryptids, like I love Oh, cool, love monster. I, I love the whole Bigfoot idea. I don't know if you can count area 51 and aliens as scripted.

I'm not really sure if that constitutes it, but as a kid. [00:14:00] I would read all these books about sightings, about, the Lochness monster and Bigfoot, and I remember deep in my soul just thinking, I hope this thing is real. I hope that there's some mythical creature out there that somehow manages to maintain obscurity, but it has this presence that an entire, that brings like a community together, oh, I have a tale about this thing. I have a tale about this thing. Is it true? No one knows, but but you want to believe. And it and I think it's that. It's, I think it's that thing where you can actually see an adult. You can see an adult tap into that child look like, that childlike glee about oh, there's this unexplainable thing that even I, as a cynical adult can't explain.

Now in terms of. In terms of like old little towns, that are preserving their history and everyone dressing up as characters and things like that. I remember going to Philadelphia and visiting the Liberty Bell. 

Matthew: Oh yeah. 

Dan: And dressing up and Williamsburg 

Matthew: was my trip. 

Dan: Yeah. Doing all that.

[00:15:00] And I'm thinking, and I remember being a kid, just thinking about getting into your car. Maybe it's like a, maybe it's a, a Passat or something like that and you're dressed like this man driving home made, paying the toll, dressed like this man, and then going home and saying, how's work today?

And then, but they stay in character 'cause they're a method actor. 

Matthew: Oh, 

Dan: nice. Just completely committed to it. And then like for me, and I'm not, I don't know, I don't know if this quaint little town has ever ventured outside of California. People who are fans of traveling know about this, but in California there's a little town called Solvang, California, and it's basically like this re this replica of this little I don't want to say a little Danish town.

And when I was a kid it was like one of my favorite places to go. 'cause you'd go there and the street smelled like hot chocolate and people, wearing leader hose in and things like that. It was this place where. Let's [00:16:00] com let's forget that we're in Southern California, folks, you are now transported into this ma magical world of Denmark or whatever or whatever.

And guess what the entire community is in on it. We're going to sell this to you. And so it, it reminds me of when you go to medieval times, everyone's in character. But they're pouring you Pepsi. They're pouring you Pepsi in a goblet. And they're inviting you. Come on, get in character, have some fun. You know me Lord. Like that's, I love integrating the real world with this need to pretend that you're someone else. I think that's. I think there's something actually very healthy about that.

Using it to express yourself in a way that maybe your normal self wouldn't. And here in Barnacle Bay, the community is reliant on this tourism, so everyone does it. But then you also have this Karate Dojo called, let's Kick It. And you go there and then you [00:17:00] meet the Dojo, you meet the sensei and he's got his entire backstory.

And then, Ms. Wilcox, the school teacher, she's got her entire backstory. 'cause everyone has a story to tell. And then at some point you're gonna know about these two people and you're gonna think maybe down the line like, oh my gosh, what would happen if these two characters met? And then later on, that's the beauty of doing a series.

Is that at some point you can slowly build up that tension to the point where they meet and then you are already anticipating this from like little nuggets that were built in like earlier on in the series, and then they finally meet and you're like, oh my gosh, I've been waiting for this. So take a picture book 32 pages long, you have to deliver the goods.

End to end 32 pages. You do a graphic novel. You can introduce something very early on in the book, but you have to deliver on the end of the story. You do a series, and I know a lot of publishers want you to do these like one-offs where oh, you could pick [00:18:00] up book three and you don't have to really, you could just jump right in and you can, you don't even have to connect with book one and two.

I say yes, but also let's keep this story going and maybe if I do my job and I entertain you enough in this isolated story that you're gonna say, I don't like everyone's telling me about this joke reference, but I need to understand why I find it funny. 'cause I don't know the backstory, right?

I want the reader to be a part of that community. I want them to be a part of Barnacle Bay. I think that's. To me the most important part, like I want them 'cause the lot, 'cause a lot of the characters in this book, you're gonna find out that sashimi is not the weirdest, most interesting character.

He's just this vessel, he's the vessel for this town. But then when you meet everybody in the town, you're gonna realize, oh my gosh, everybody in this town has just as much personality as sashimi. And maybe a reader will see that in themselves and they'll find [00:19:00] that uniqueness and say, look, I live in this community, but I also have my own identity in this town.

I'm not just a person in this town. I could be the main character in this tired adventure if I chose to. 

Matthew: I love that you're writing for the anthology, and I hope that one day we get a big. Single edition anthology, you'll design it so it'll be designed like a sushi box or something rad, right?

And all the kids will understand all the jokes on the design itself. But I love that you're building for kids to be in the world with you, to inhabit the world with you. That's a great thing. 

Dan: Yeah, so oh gosh. Going years like working with Mo and Elephant and Piggy like reading and then working with Dave on Ricky Ricotta and they both at some point asked me like, how come you haven't done your own series?

Matthew: Cool. I'm glad you got the opportunity. 

Dan: And yeah, and it was something that I thought about for a while, but I think the insecure part of me knocked out, [00:20:00] beagle won that award. Thought, I think I'm this person right now. I think, I'm the person that has to be to make deep, meaningful, heartfelt books.

And not that I wasn't enjoying that, not that I, but it can also be a very emotionally taxing, pouring your heart into something, right? Writing after the fall, which was a metaphor about my wife overcoming anxiety and depression. Bele, the metaphor about the day my son was born. First time for everything revealing who I was as a kid growing up.

Like it gets, once you're done with those kind of projects, you're exhausted. You have to like, you have to recover from that, right? You put so much of your heart into something. Sashimi, on the other hand is I just wanna fill this book with jokes. I don't even. And for anybody who picks up these books, you're gonna real, you're gonna notice that like my drawing style is a lot more looser, a lot more fun.

I'm not obsessed with like perspective or even colors [00:21:00] because I have this great colorist, Abe Erskine, and this is the first time in my career where I have said, I am just relying on you 100% to color this book the way. And let me tell you. That's looks 

Matthew: good, looks real good. 

Dan: Glad you had 

Matthew: that freedom.

Dan: But to relinquish that kind of control for someone who's been doing that for their work for all these years, it's a big ask, but then once you get to book two, book three, you just let the hands off the steering wheel and you say, you know what? My sole purpose for this series.

Is to just make this as funny as possible. And I have my editor, Connie Shu and our assistant associate editor, Nico, and we get into meetings like every other week and we, it's kinda like a writer's room and like Saturday Night Live, we just take the manuscript and we just do punch up. We just punch up jokes and it's the most fun.

This is the most fun I've had in years of making a book. 

Matthew: I love hearing that Dan watching as our time has slipped through our fingers. I want to close by giving you a [00:22:00] chance. We're coming. We're on spring break now, buddy. We're gonna be off of spring break and you're gonna be the first message that I share back with my students.

So I would love to ask you that I will see a library full of children tomorrow morning soon. Is there a message that I can bring to them from you?

Dan: Take this moment to enjoy being a kid. And be fearless when you play.