In the Thick of It with Corinna Luyken

Corinna Luyken, author illustrator of The Arguers (Rocky Pond Books), joins Matthew to talk about the silly, the absurd, and seeing yourself in every single character.

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About the book: The Arguers by Corinna Luyken. Published by Rocky Pond Books

A delightfully preposterous and original fairy tale about a community that forgets how to get along, by the celebrated creator of The Book of Mistakes

The first argument was over a brush and a comb, and which would be better for taking a tangle out of the king's beard. Next came the argument over letters, and then over spoons . . . and soon they argued all the time, and no one could remember when the arguing had started or over what or by whom. They only knew that they had always argued, and that they did it well. Very, very well.

And so it was that the king and queen decided to hold a contest to choose the very best arguer in the land. But what will happen when everyone is so busy arguing that they can't even hear the queen announce the start of the contest?

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Visit Corinna Luyken online at corinnaluyken.com

Transcript:

NOTE: Transcript created by Descript. I've attempted to clean up any typos, grammatical errors, and formatting errors where possible.

Matthew: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Children's Book Podcast, where we celebrate the power of storytelling to reflect our world, expand our perspectives, and foster connections between readers of all ages. Brought to you in partnership with the highlights foundation, positively impact. Kids by amplifying the voices of storytellers who inform, educate, and inspire children to become their best selves.

I'm your host, Matthew Winner teacher, librarian, writer, and a fan of kids. Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can hear the Children's Book Podcast Early and a free by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. Click the banner on your podcast app at any time. Today on the podcast, I'm talking with Corinna Luyken, celebrated creator of the.

Book of Mistakes. My Heart and the Tree in Me. We're talking about her brand new picture book, the Arguers. This delightfully [00:01:00] preposterous and holy original fairytale begins with a single argument. Over a brush and a comb, and soon grows into a community that has forgotten how to get along. When the king and queen decide to hold a contest to find the very best arguer in the land, things take an unexpected turn because when everyone is so busy arguing, who's left to listen?

Corinna's work has always explored emotion, empathy, and the quiet power of observation. In the arguers, she turns her keen artistic eye toward what happens when conflict becomes habit, how curiosity play and connection might just help us find our way back to one another. I love Karina's emphasis on the silly and absurd.

And on the havoc that ensues, she's one of our generation's illustrators, whom I always am watching because her work delights me. So I think that comes through in the interview too. Please welcome Karina Luan to the podcast.[00:02:00] 

Corinna: Hi, my name is Corinna Luyken and I am the author and illustrator of a number of picture books, uh, including the book of Mistakes and my heart and the tree and me and a, b, c in you and me. And then most recently, the Arguers and I have also illustrated a number of books written by other authors, uh, that include patchwork in the dark.

Adrian Simcox does not have a horse, something good and nothing in common. I think that's, 

Matthew: I think that's the list. There's not. Best ones, but there are best ones. Every book you've touched, I, I, we've said that, you know this about me. I deeply admire your work. You are like one of the names that come to my mind when I'm, like, when my picture book gets sold, whichever one of them, I'm gonna be like, Corinna's the one, please.

Pretty please. Um, [00:03:00] because you have. You just have a captivating style to me. You're like, Julie Moore said to me where I just adore what she touches. And Julie said, that's high praise for that. For 

Corinna: that. 

Matthew: All right, you just named 

Corinna: two of my favorites. Oh, goodness. They, they 

Matthew: just, they have a voice, um, and they don't repeat the voice from book to book.

And this is the compliment I want to pay to you. First thing is that. Because I think readers will see it too. If readers are looking at your body of work, they'll see that there's a distinct voice there, but not one that's repeated from book to book that you ask yourself, I assume what the book is calling for, what the story's calling for.

We're gonna get into that. Before we get too deep though, why don't you talk to all of us about the Arguers a little book, talk about what this book is, what goes on in this book. All right, so the 

Corinna: Arguers is, uh, a book that begins. Well, it starts in a land [00:04:00] of excess, I would say, and it begins with a single argument.

And that argument is over a brush and a comb. And which would be better for taking a tangle out of the king's? Very, very, very long beard. And from there, the arguers, um, the arguments grow until. No one can remember when the arguing started or where, or by whom, but they just know that they argue and they argue very, very well.

So when the king and queen decide to hold a contest to choose the best arguer in the land, um, they all put on their finest clothes and show up with their finest hairstyles and lots of bows. Um, and the story is really about what happens when everyone is too busy arguing already to even hear the king and queen say, begin.

And, um, I guess to find out what happens after that, you need to read the book. 

Matthew: Karina, when did the story start for you? Did it start with a brush and a [00:05:00] tangle? Where, where did this idea come from? 

Corinna: Well, I think. Like many of my books, it, it started in a few different places that merged as, as I started to follow the thread of the story.

But the story definitely started with, with words, with language and this line in my head about the first argument and the brush and the comb and, um, that came before any pictures. And then pretty quickly I had images in my head and, and wanted to try out some of the, the sillier more absurd arguments in the story.

And, um. So I drew, you know, this arguing with a brush and a comb and these tangles and this crazy long beard. And I drew a scene of arguing with stones in the road. And, um, another one of arguing with flowers. I chose those three and I, I loved what the art was doing and it made me laugh. And so that sort of.

Making myself laugh while I'm drawing. [00:06:00] Doesn't happen that often. When it happens, I, I stop and I pay attention. And so that's sort of the thread of how the story itself took shape in the, you know, in my studio, in the creative process. But, but of course in the background, there's everything happening in my life and the world around me.

And, um, I will say this, I will say, um. That I have a 15-year-old daughter now who maybe doesn't want me to talk about her a ton in podcasts, so I won't say a lot, but, uh, she had very long hair for most of her childhood. And brushing that hair was certainly an event. And we are a family that loves the ocean.

And we go to the beach and we camp and we surf and salt water and wind and sand and camping. Uh. Kind of havoc on long.

So we may have had an argument or [00:07:00] two or 20, um, about hair brushing and I, I may even have, you know, those things you look back on as a parent where you say, did I really say that? But I may have threatened to cut all that hair off more than once. Uh, if we couldn't brush it. So, so yeah. You know that, that those arguments are there in the background.

And I would say that that some of even the very absurd arguments in the book that seem like, why would anyone ever argue over this there, if you kind of look back into your life and you think, I. Is there a way to make this a feasible argument? Is there a way to make this, you know, reasonable and not coming from a place of ridiculousness?

And, uh, I think I have found in the making of the book that that many are of the absurd arguments. You, you really can find an angle on it where it's maybe not so crazy. 

Matthew: Yeah. I mean, arguing with the stone, arguing with. I, my favorite composition, I, I I, first I wanna step back and say I love that [00:08:00] you said that you made yourself laugh while illustrating, 'cause it speaks to whatever you wanna call it, what the muse is doing while you, it speaks to the, the moment in creatives of not fully being in control.

Yeah. But being there with. The story that's being told through your pen, through the words, through whatever, that, that's a neat moment to hear that you're cracking yourself up because, 'cause I think it nods to not being in control and I totally, I think I need that. I also Yeah, a hundred 

Corinna: percent. A hundred percent.

I would say like, I think that feeling of laughter and delight comes in huge part from the feeling of surprise. Like when you surprise your, because you can't make yourself laugh if you know what's 

Matthew: coming. You have to be surprised. You have to be surprised. Yeah. And to get yourself as a creative to the point where, where you're loose enough that I am in control and I'm mixing the ingredients and I'm directing in this [00:09:00] certain way, but I allow enough looseness to be surprised is something I, I also found I love the absurdity of your story.

I think that's. I think that that's some of my favorite qualities in children's books is The Absurdity. I love Maurice Sandeck for that. I love Laurel Snyder. Um, and Chuck Renick had a beautiful book, hungry Gym. That was just absurd, and I, I love it for that. Um, it reminds me too, in this case of Dr.

Seuss's book, the Bitter Butter Battle. Yes. Yeah, that's, but Wes funny. We're argue about what side to butter, the toast. Mm-hmm. It's better to butter on the top or better to butter on the bottom. Um, it, it's a, it's a wonderful thing. I, I noticed as I read this though, this second and third time, and by the way, I'm gonna just show you we're an audio podcast.

I'm gonna show you that. That's my favorite spread right there. My favorite spread is the, uh, readers. It's divided. It's the, the text reads about all of these individuals who are [00:10:00] arguing. They argued in fog and sun and sleet and snow, and you've divided the spread into quarters and just have. I'm gonna use my words 'cause I don't know the words for you.

I'm, I'm expressing my, but you just had like sketch, just line work of these characters with the, the fog, the sun sort of painted over them, a wash over them. I just loved the way that that broke up. The other art you did And, and, and, and, and I had the mustache flying off in the distance and all of these just silly, silly details.

But I was going to lead to say, I noticed throughout this book. I looked at faces, which is what we do. 'cause we're putting ourselves onto these characters when we read.[00:11:00] 

As I looked at faces, I noticed the king and the queen, and really all of the royal family, um, just always seemed full of worry about the arguing happening around them. It was happening on their behalf. They're, you have the tangled beard or the, um, the food that needs to be served in a oval spoon or a wooden spoon, or a gold spoon.

That's you, you're, you're in some way the source of the argument. Um, but, but to look. [00:12:00] And to, to feel the shock of what do I do was kind of wonderful. It made me wonder where you are, Karina, in this book, do you, do you see yourself being expressed through any one of these characters? Maybe perhaps in the way that you, when your, in your, your child encountered one another and Sandy beach hair?

Yeah. 

Corinna: Sandy beach hair. Um, yeah. I. I think one of the tricks as an illustrator and, and writer as well, but in a way is finding, finding a way to feel or see yourself in every single character that you draw. You know, so that you really have that, um, so that you're fleshing out the character, making them.

Three dimensional and, um, really trying, even when you draw a simple character in a simple scene that no one is gonna see again, um, trying to make sure that they're not a stereotype [00:13:00] or just a stand in. And so of course when it comes to characters that repeat themselves throughout the book that you see more often, there's more time spent drawing to sort of feel that connection.

And, um, I think, you know, maybe some small part of my brain when I started the story thought. I was paying attention to the world around me and thought, why are we arguing over some of the things we're arguing over? And this feels never ending, but it also feels so silly on a deeper level. Life is short.

Why do we do this? And so I think there's a part of my brain that was sort of in problem solving mode, like how. How would I, how could we fix this collaboratively? Do I have thoughts? Do I have suggestions? You know, what, can the story help me find a solution? But then there's this other part of my brain that's like, oh wow, that's me.

You know, I, I do that and, and I might think, oh, why do we argue on this large [00:14:00] scale over unnecessary things? And then I go home and I'm with my family and I'm in this really un like. Repetitive recurring argument with my child over something that is not really that important, you know, and these arguments we come back to again and again too, sort of the cyclical nature of it.

And, and so that's, that piece is humbling. It's like, oh, okay. I, I, with all my meditation training and all my years of life experience, I'm, I'm still doing this. Yeah. And my husband is looking at me like, why did you step into that argument? You know, there's no winning in this. He's better than I am at walking away, not engaging, you know, when someone's sort of trying to pick a fight with you and you know it, um.

There's something humbling there that also then makes the story become more complex. It's like I don't just see myself in this one character, and I'm not just, [00:15:00] I'm not above the fray. I'm in the thick of it with everyone else. And so then how do we, how do we move forward and create the kind of world we wanna live in?

And I think. This would be a long, longer, larger story about kind of the ending of the book and how difficult it was to find it. But I think, you know, one of the things that happened as I was making the story was sort of realizing that. I was dealing with something that was very cyclical, very repetitive, that would never be solved, you know, in that traditional sense.

And that any happy ending, tidy, any tidy ending, wrapped up with a bow is gonna feel false. 

Matthew: It wouldn't work. 

Corinna: I agree. And wouldn't work. And so what do you do with this, this recurring thing and, and really when you think about. What breaks the energy of an argument, there's different things that can do that, right?

And, and one is time and connection and, [00:16:00] but um, but another thing that can really stop an argument in its tracks is actually humor is laughing. And it doesn't happen that often, but when it does, and, and I would say my husband, um, is pretty good at pointing out the humor in a situation or. Making me laugh when I'm very serious sometimes.

And um, so making these drawings that made me laugh was like, oh, wait a minute. You know, when you look at a story and you're struggling with a story or midway through a story and you're trying to figure out where it's going, I think it's one really helpful thing can be too. Pay attention to where the energy is in the story.

Like what is working already? What do what, what do I love about this? What made me wanna spend time with this project? Anyway, out of all the little kernels of ideas that I have, why? Why this one? And with the arguers, that humor, that laughing, that making myself laugh, that [00:17:00] absurdity and sort of the feeling of relief that comes from it.

Um. And sort of the, the relief of talking about something difficult but true and then the relief of finding humor in the midst of it was such a good feeling that it was like, okay, there's energy here and this is the energy worth following. Did you find 

Matthew: this? I'll, I'll switch Actually, first I'm gonna ask it a different way because when I read this book, I.

I think naturally 'cause I, because of my job, my day to day, I see myself reading in front of a classroom of children, uh, a library, uh, of children, each maybe seeing a different thing when I'm reading to different classes. But, um, very much this book felt like holding up a mirror to ourselves and how outlandish arguing can be not unfounded.

You can really care about. The way you want that argument, the way you see yourself when we [00:18:00] argue it's, it's a, it's a fight for self. Mm-hmm. Um, it's a fight for our value. It's a, i, I believe we should do things this way. And if you disagree with me, does that mean there's something wrong with me? Does it mean I'm wrong in some way?

Um.

It sounds like in putting yourself or in seeing yourself in each of the characters throughout this book and throughout this process, um, in a lot of ways you were really having that conversation with yourself, which I think makes it so full and so multifaceted. When you create, or maybe with this book, when you created this book, do you tend to think about, I wonder what children will get out of this, or are you perhaps.

In sync enough or entrust enough with your voice as an artist to know that if I'm true to me, it will be true to them. I, I, I just, it's an [00:19:00] introspection question, but I, I wonder about you. 

Corinna: I think when I'm starting on a project, I really can't think very much about the audience, um, because it feels like this delicate.

Sort of tenuous task of sort of, you know, pulling on a thread maybe of like, oh, there's something I'm interested in. It might be a, often it's actually rhythm and sound quality of, of a series of words that come to me and I kind of follow them. Uh, or some idea that's kind of. Interesting. But it's usually rooted in actual language for me.

Like it really is rooted in the, the sound of the words as they come. And, um, I do so much revising for sound in my books. And so in the beginning I think I'm just sort of following this thing that is very intuitive. I'm not a bookmaker that really starts with an idea of a book that I want to make and then makes that book okay.

It's more like I stumble into something and sometimes I will stumble into [00:20:00] something and recognize that it was a. Theme that I was interested in. For example, the tree in me, I had, uh, wanted to make a book about interconnection and the ways in which we're all interconnected. And I tried a few times with just like diving straight into that idea and, and it was terrible.

And then one day these words came to me. And as I followed the thread of the words, I started to realize, oh, this is that book. This is the book I wanted to make. Oh. But it had to come on its own terms to not feel cliche or not feel, you know? And so I think there's a, a little bit of that, um, in the beginning, but eventually, of course, I, I do think about the audience and I do think about the child, the child audience, and, but my general approach to thinking about my audience, which is.

Obviously a children in a classroom, but in a home it's often, it could be a child by themselves, but it could be a child with an adult or a few [00:21:00] children. And, um, when I think about that audience, one thing that I try to remember, um, that I believe strongly is that there are, that there needs to be as many types of books out there as there are types of readers.

Yeah. And not every book needs to be a book for all the kids. And I think. I don't think it can be or can be. Right. I imagine 

Matthew: that, that there's such a thing as a book for all kids. If it's for everyone, it's almost for no one. 

Corinna: For no one. Right. But there are books that that belong, I think, that beg to be read aloud to large groups.

Sure. That really are for most of the people, you know, most of and, and that can be a fun kind of book to make. But I try to remind myself that, you know. The kinds of books I liked as a kid were weird and they weren't. The books everyone liked, the kinds of books my daughter liked as a kid were quiet often, oh and a little bit odd, and not necessarily the a book that would do great in a story time.

Read aloud, you know, she liked these kind of quiet, introspective books. And so [00:22:00] I have a piece of that that's sort of like giving myself permission to go down roads that might not feel at first, like they're for. I'm not really thinking is this for kids or not, but I'm also not gonna ever stop myself and think this wouldn't be for kids.

I think kids are very smart and I think, well, I, I think they're so often underestimated by, by adults and their capacity to be, um, to sit with not knowing in the process of reading a book and to just look and wonder and ask questions is. Larger than I think the capacity of many adults. And so I, that gives me permission to kind of go down a, a road like writing about something like arguing that seems like, how would this be?

How would this book be fun? Um, but I trust that. I trust that if I stick with it and follow the story, that it could be fun for kids. And, um, one thing I will say about this book in particular and reading it to [00:23:00] large groups is that it came out in the spring and then summer hit. So I haven't done a. That many classroom visits.

I'm about to do some, a bunch this fall, but, but I did a few and I actually did a few before the book was technically out in the world where I got to share my, you know, one single author copy with, uh, you know, an auditorium full of kids. And I do a thing when I, when I go into classrooms and I share the book of mistakes, you know, I'll do a thing like, um.

Raise your hand if you've ever made a mistake. You know, because the book is dedicated to everyone who's ever made a mistake. And so then I, you know, then I can say this book is for you. And, um, so with the Arguers, I just try a thing like you do when you're first introducing a book to, to schools. And I said, has anyone ever, you know, gotten in an argument?

And of course, like all the arms went up in the room. But what I thought was so interesting is they didn't just kind of go up, they like went. Straight up in the air. It was like, baby me, absolutely me. You know [00:24:00] me. And then I, I asked, you know, have you ever gotten in an argument about something small and silly?

And the, the, all the times that I did this, it's like the room just kind of erupted with conversation and kids wanted to talk about it. They wanted to say, me, I argue with my brother. Oh, I argued over, you know, this little thing or that little thing. And I got in an argument and it's kind of like, I don't know if you've had this experience.

It may be partly, um, something that I have experienced a lot because I have a gap between my front teeth, but I was a teaching assistant in schools for, for years and um, and I did an art teacher off and on, and. Part of being a teaching assistant is being, uh, the classroom, like the, the recess. You know, you go out on the playground at recess, you're the person that's kind of watching the recess 

Matthew: monitor, 

Corinna: recess monitor.

Thank you. That's the word. And, um, and you know, so then the kids wanna come up and interact. And I just re you know, I remember like, kids will come up from all over and talk to you and [00:25:00] they have time. And I would get asked all the time if I'd lost a tooth 'cause of this gap. And the minute one person asks, what they really want to do is tell you.

About their lost tooth story. And the minute one kid tells a tooth story, all the kids want to share theirs. Like there is so much excitement around sharing lost tooth stories, like massive, massive amounts of energy around that topic. It's so, um. Personal and, and in the moment and something that they, it's a big deal at that age, and I felt a little bit of that energy in this room.

When I asked about arguments, it was like everyone wanted to tell a story about a silly argument. And it made me realize, okay, this is something we don't talk about. This is like, I don't know if taboo is quite the right word, but it's sort of this territory we don't dive into. [00:26:00] And you don't go around saying like, have you ever, you know, gotten into silly argument, maybe felt bad about it afterwards, you know, these things and.

There was something about the permission given in that moment and just how much energy there was in the room that made me realize, oh, this is something that the kids actually wanna talk about. Yeah. And you may or may not wanna talk about the bigger arguments happening in the world, but there's, there's also a safe place if there's ways to approach it, you know, where it can be more on a, a small scale, you know?

Have you, have you done this too? And then when you realize everyone in the room is raising their hand, it's like, oh, it's not just me. 

Matthew: And not only that, I would argue, I would argue that, um, each argument that we are identifying. Mattered to us, otherwise we wouldn't share. That was just a dumb argument. No, it happened.

It was somehow defining for me, I don't know what it was defining, but it [00:27:00] was defining for me to stand up to my sibling and say, that's, that's my thing. Or you, you wreck this thing or you lost this, or, uh, I get to go first, or whatever. All of this, um, exerting ourselves, exerting our existence matters. How wonderful that you got to witness them.

Uh, not, I don't want to conflate it. They weren't proud that they were in an argument. Mm. They were proud to raise their hand and own it. And that's something. Yeah. 'cause I think you also revealed perhaps to the whole room that they weren't ashamed. About it. It was, it was a reality of them. It didn't make them, you, this is not a book about being a bad person.

Hey, bad people are people that argue we should resolve. In fact, in your book, no one resolves their argument or maybe everyone resolves their argument, but not in the way of coming to a resolution, rather as you were saying, with humor. Um, not that it's humorous for the [00:28:00] individuals in this book and what they were going through, but, but an interrupting force.

Disrupts as it can happen to us. It disrupts. And then you go, wait, you, you'll sort of lose the steam of the argument. Yeah. And then the argument is just, ah, I guess we're, I guess we're done now. Yeah. It really mattered when I was in it, but I guess we're just done now. That doesn't mean it wasn't significant, but, but it does mean it's in the past.

Corinna: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're moving on and we may argue about some, we will argue about something else. We'll, and especially with, and I guess that's the other piece too, right? Is like. There's the big arguments we have with people we strongly disagree with, but there's also all the petty little arguments we have with the people that we really, really love because they are, it's a safe place, right?

It's a safe place to disagree. It's a safe place to let out. Frustration, um, maybe even from other things in your day, you know, those arguments. That are really not about that thing at all. It's really just this was the tipping point and other things happened and, and something awful happened at school and someone was mean to you [00:29:00] and you come home and then you don't like what's for dinner.

And now you know, this is a safe place to get mad. And, um, it all connects. I think it, it all connects. And I don't think, I think I quickly realized making this book that this couldn't be a book about. It's bad to argue. Arguing is wrong. Arguing and disagreement is a really, really important part of being human.

And I think that was part of what made this the whole story interesting to me. You know, I think the more books I make, the more I look back and see themes and patterns, and I definitely have noticed. I, I do like making books about uncomfortable things, but approaching them in a way that is not necessarily uncomfortable, you know, but that just kind of is honoring them for being part of life and, and what's there.

Matthew: And, um, you make trust when you do that. Karina, we. We trust that when you draw this massively fluffy hair and ridiculous, absurd beards going from one side of the [00:30:00] page to the other and all of these different qualities, we trust that like, oh, we're talking about arguing, but like clearly the person who made this book wants us to know that like, it's okay.

It's gonna be okay. I'm not gonna yell at you for arguing in this book. We're gonna be laughing along while we go. Did a great job, Karina. I also love, I, I know I'm watching a hard time, but I also love that, and I see this in, in all of your books. I, I tend to, I'll, I'll say it this way, I tend to feel like when you start your books out.

From my side, but you pick a palette, you're like, here's the six colors I'm gonna use, and that's gonna be the voice of the art. And I'm here to say I like that. I like that you do that. It makes me think. You ever see those, um, Instagram pictures where they're like, take a work of art and they're like, here's the six colors and we're gonna dress in an outfit that like compliments the thing.

Yeah. It feels like that to me. Um, that you've got. A, a, a palette, that's the voice of the story. And maybe your challenge as [00:31:00] artist is how much can I vary from spread to spread so that your eyes don't get tired of seeing those colors, but that you're delighting and you're leaning in and you're paying attention, which with each new way I'm presenting them, whether it's um, how rich I'm presenting the hue, or how saturated, or how much it's taking up of the page, or how it's juxtaposing with other colors, but.

I've come to know that since the years, since we've last talked, that that is, that is maybe the, the, the maybe one of the strongest qualities of your art. That and your loose line. God, I love your loose line. But, um, that, that, that really, um, speaks to me, um. We

could do a whole separate podcast about Oh yeah.

Color theory and why you're drawn to whatever and how you make this book. Not like that book, but maybe where I'm coming from is just to say there's something about you employing that skill Carina that communicates that you know your readers as well. Yeah. That you, well, you hit on, oh, go ahead. No, I was just gonna say that, you [00:32:00] know, that, um, I won.

You to be able to sustain your interest. Your attention to this book, and I know in order, this is what I'm assuming, this is, I'm projecting onto you that I know in order for you to, for your eyes, to not become overwhelmed. For you to not become overwhelmed in the story, but really to follow me to track page, to page, to page, I'm gonna have to limit.

And that limiting is gonna cause you to, to pay greater attention. Yeah. It just, it, it works. It works very well. 

Corinna: Thank you, Matthew. I mean, you definitely, you spoke to probably the two things I love most about creating. Right. And definitely step one in all my books is color and controlled color palette.

Because by controlling the color palette you control, uh, well the emotion really colors are emotion. And so when you, when you limit the colors and really use them, you really can sort of. Guide your reader through an emotional journey in a different sort of way, I think, than when you use all the colors.

And I [00:33:00] just don't ever use all the colors. It just doesn't, it doesn't make me happy. It doesn't, it's not what I, what I wanna do. And um, and then of course the loose line is my, it is really my other favorite thing. Oh, so, wow. Thank you. That, that means a lot that you said that you noticed that Oh, that's nice.

Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. But the getting bored is a big part too. You're right about that. Having to figure out how to not make, especially colors like. Well, like the green and the orange and the arguers or the gray and yellow in my heart where it's so 

Matthew: sure. 

Corinna: You do have to be very careful not to, um, lose your reader from too much.

That is the same. 

Matthew: Yeah. Um, I, I, I just bring it up too 'cause we see it on the other side that when too much is going on, I, I'm not that reader. I, I am a reader. I'm not all of the readers that I read to. Yeah. But I do, when I read to children, if I'm reading to, you know, 25 kids in my class, I scan their eyes 'cause they're looking at me holding that book [00:34:00] and I can see some of them who are trying to take in everything in the picture.

And some of them that just on the next spread or two are looking off somewhere else. Yeah. And you just have to think, it's not bad you're still hearing the story, but perhaps it's, it's, it's overwhelming. You and I, I would really love for you to be able to. Inhabit the entire book, not need to take a break.

Yeah. From the quality of the book in order to, to sustain anyway. Yeah. Yeah. You're awesome. You're the best. It's the greatest. I love it. 

Corinna: Thank you, 

Matthew: Matthew. 

Corinna: I love talking books with you. Love. I just love it. Love working books with you. You're so, so thoughtful. Love. Let's talk some more. Yeah. And I love hearing how you think about books with your classroom and the students.

It's just, yeah. You're, you're very thoughtful about it and I 

Matthew: appreciate that. You know, I think, um. Before I close with you, I'll say, you brought up about, you said it a really wonderful way, a child's capacity for wonder, I think is the way you said it. Um, and I, I think that maybe two decades [00:35:00] into a career in the library, what I'm realizing is as an adult, it's, it's, it's my responsibility when I inhabit space with them, um, to, to forfeit.

Any hope of fully understanding how much wonder they're capable of, that I just, I'll never be able to anticipate it. I just have to inhabit the space with them. Yeah. And thank you in that way for making books that I, that I get to do that with them. We are playing with you, you are in our library when we do that.

Um, so lemme bring you directly into my library to close with you, my friend, and, uh, and say that I'll see a library full of children tomorrow morning. Corina, is there a message I can bring to them from you? 

Corinna: Well. So I'm not one, I would say for messages so much and more I'm more interested in questions.

And so I think I would, I would ask a question of your students and um, [00:36:00] and I'm tempted and there's sort of two questions I'm tempted to ask them, and one is definitely that question of the personal question of arguments in your relationship to them in your life. So, you know. In the case of the classroom visits we were talking about, I asked, you know, have you ever gotten into a silly argument or something?

But I would say, um, a question that maybe I'm even more interested in there is, have you ever been in an argument and you felt so sure that you were right? And then later when you thought about it or after the argument, you realized either that you might have been wrong. Or that as right as you were the other person might have been right too.

And I'm interested in those arguments. I'm interested in the stories of those arguments. I think that's an interesting place to go with the conversation. Um, on the flip side of [00:37:00] that, the question I'm always tempted to ask when I'm, when I'm thinking about. A room full of kids and the next generation and the way that they will inherit this world that we live in.

And they will, they will live in it long past when we are gone. Um, and then they will pass it on to, to another generation. And so the question there for me is always, uh, it's really a Miss Rufi question. Um, and it's the question of what. What could you do today? Is there something small you could do today to make the world a better place to help create the world that you want to live in?

And small is good.