Writers are Listeners with Nikki Grimes

Nikki Grimes, author of A Cup of Quiet (Bloomsbury Children's Books), joins Matthew to talk about creating an entryway to discussion.

Listen along:

About the book: A Cup of Quiet by Nikki Grimes; illustrated by Cathy Ann Johnson. Published by Bloomsbury Children's Books.

From award-winning author Nikki Grimes comes a beautiful picture book about the special bond between a child and grandparent, perfect for fans of Thank You, Omu and Fry Bread.

When the squeal of tires and thrum of Grandpa's hammer fill the air, Grandma gets thirsty for a cup of quiet.

“That's silly, Grandma,” her granddaughter says. “Quiet can't fit in a cup and you can't drink it.”

But together, they venture into the garden to collect the calming sounds of nature, and their cup grows and grows.

A bee's buzz,

a leaf's crackle,

a whistling wind,

a hummingbird's whir.

By slowing down and appreciating the gentler sounds of nature, Grandma and her granddaughter step away from the hubbub of daily life and refresh. Their time together made more special by sharing a cup of quiet.

More:

Visit Nikki Grimes online at nikkigrimes.com 

Other helpful links:

• Nikki Grimes at the Highlights Foundation

• Nikki Grimes Scholarship - Honoring the contributions of Nikki Grimes to the field of children’s literature through her advocacy and writing. This scholarship celebrates Black and Afro-Indigenous female writers and poets.

• The Nikki Grimes Cottage at the Highlights Foundation - New York Times bestselling author Nikki Grimes is a long-time friend of this organization and our community.  This cabin honors her, and features some of her awards and copies of most of her published work.  The Nikki Grimes Scholarship at the Highlights Foundation supports Black and Afro-Indigenous Women Writers and Poets.

Learn more about the Highlights Foundation and their upcoming programs by visiting www.highlightsfoundation.org 

Transcript:

NOTE: Transcript created by Descript. I've attempted to clean up any typos, grammatical errors, and formatting errors where possible.

Matthew: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Children’s Book Podcast, where we celebrate the power of storytelling to reflect our world, expand our perspectives, and foster connections between readers of all ages. Brought to you in partnership with the Highlights Foundation, positively impacting kids by amplifying the voices of storytellers who inform, educate, and inspire children to become their best selves.

I’m your host, Matthew Winner—teacher, librarian, writer, and a fan of kids.

Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can listen to The Children’s Book Podcast ad-free and with early access by subscribing to TCBP +Plus on Apple Podcasts. Just tap the banner at the top of the show page to learn more.

Today, I’m thrilled to welcome back a truly legendary voice in children’s literature—Nikki Grimes, recipient of the Children’s Literature Legacy Award and the author of an extraordinary body of work that has shaped generations of readers.

Her newest picture book, A Cup of Quiet (Bloomsbury Children's Books), illustrated by Cathy Ann Johnson, is a tender meditation on slowing down, listening closely, and the special bond between a child and a grandparent. When the world feels loud—with squealing tires, clanging tools, and the constant hum of daily life—Grandma longs for something simple and restorative: a cup of quiet.

Together, Grandma and her granddaughter step into the garden to gather the soft, calming sounds of nature—a bee’s buzz, a leaf’s crackle, a whispering wind—and in doing so, they create space for rest, connection, and presence. It’s a story that reminds us how meaningful it can be to pause, listen, and share stillness with the people we love.

In this conversation, Nikki Grimes reflects on intergenerational relationships, mindfulness, and the power of poetry and picture books to offer comfort in a noisy world. Nikki talks about writers as listeners and as editors. She illuminates this task of creating for readers an entryway to discuss within books. And the one thing that connects everything that we do. 

I hope you enjoy this conversation along with whatever cup of quiet you’re able to gather for yourself today.

Please welcome Nikki Grimes to the podcast.

Nikki: Hi, my name is Nikki Grimes. I'm an author and poet, and. One of my newest books is [00:03:00] titled A Cup of Quiet. 

Matthew: Welcome back, Nikki. I've been asking folks recently in order to center ourselves in the time, the moment that we are recording, I've been asking 'em this question, so I'll ask you, what is giving you hope today, Nikki?

Nikki: My answer is always the same young people. As crazy and stressful and scary as the world is right now. Young people continue to be brave, resilient, and determined to make the world better. They're creating signs for the peaceful protests and starting band book clubs in their schools and neighborhoods, and volunteering at shelters and raising funds for local food banks.

Whatever needs they see around them, they are answering in concrete ways with heartfelt action and determination, [00:04:00] and I am awed by them and it's an honor to do work. That serves them, that I hope fuels them to continue doing the good work in the world that they're doing. 

Matthew: Nikki have you always seen hope in children?

Is that what draw drew you to writing for them? I've asked you that before, but I don't know that we've ever tied it to hope. 

Nikki: Hope is a central theme in all of my work is the one thing that connects everything that I do, no matter what age I'm writing for. It's because I'm here, because of hope, because of faith and hope.

Those are the things that have carried me through every part of my life, no matter how dark or scary it was. Those elements have been part of that for sure. And so yeah, so it's a natural part of. Of my work for children and young adults because as a child and a young adult, I would not [00:05:00] have made it otherwise.

Matthew: I know you to share that hope with adults as well. Not that you're not writing books for all of us, but also that you write for adults. You've shared your poetry with me before. It's beautiful, and I thank you. Appreciate that. You are, I think so beautifully led by hope and by your faith and by a belief in the success of all of us through all of us.

Yeah. Oh, grateful for that. You mentioned at the top that you got a, a new book. You always have new books coming out. I'm so grateful for that. But this new one is called A Cup of Quiet. Tell me about a cup of quiet, Nikki. I'm gonna ask you all the things about a cup of quiet, but tell me about it.

Nikki: Okay a little girl spends a few work weeks every summer with her grandmother outside of the city, and, on this particular visit, grandmother is really desperate for peace and quiet, [00:06:00] and she's not getting it in the house because grandpa is hammering away building a. A shelf and she runs out to the front porch with her granddaughter right on her heels.

Thinks, this is where I'm gonna find it. Only there are sirens passing by and there's the sounds of traffic and the ne neighbors, neighbors are arguing loudly next door. And so that's not getting it. So she jumps up from there and runs out to the garden and her granddaughter's right behind her, and she's Ugh.

Finally, and she's ready to just soak in the quiet, but her granddaughter is like antsy and bouncing around. And so she gives her a job to do and is connected with something they do all the time. They like to share games of make believe so she gives her granddaughter an imaginary cup and says, take this cup and go around the garden and collect [00:07:00] all of the sounds that you hear.

And so she runs around and she collects the bees buzz and the sounds of the wind and the wings of a bird and all these different sounds that she connects until there's a brainstorm that sends them both back inside, at which point she offers this now gigantic cup of of quiet cup of sounds to her grandmother to take a sip.

And they're just luscious and they're feeling, and it just makes her happy. But she does point out to grandma that your quiet is awfully noisy. And I love that because of course it is, the quiet of nature is not the absence of sound. And it's not silence. It is a different kind of quality of quiet, and I've always loved that quality and I wanted to celebrate it in this [00:08:00] book.

Matthew: Yeah. A noisy, quiet, but one that, that gives you something that quiets your yourself. 

Yeah. I love that Kathy Ann Johnson, your illustrator on this beautiful book, has made that cup grow and grow as the grandchild is collecting. Little subtle things that she does the way that she has those embraces and the body language, communicating love always.

It's never a book about child, I just need quiet from you. It's always about imaginative play, even in. Rest and in seeking maybe regulation of being too overstimulated perhaps. 

Nikki: Yeah. 

Matthew: Yeah. She's picked up on your work beautifully. 

Nikki: Oh, I, I was stunned when I saw it. I just I can't imagine anything that would've been more perfect or more challenging to, to visualize [00:09:00] something that's invisible and yet not to give it just enough texture so that you see what it is, but at the same time know that it is in fact invisible, and imaginary. It was just magical.[00:10:00] 

Matthew: Where does this line, a cup of quiet come from? That line is so evocative, so playful. The relationship with these two, the grandparent and the grandchild is so playful and loving. Does this come from your, does it come from a particular relationship of yours to a child? I also just know you though, Nikki, to be this kind and approachable person, so maybe it just comes from inside of you.

I'm not sure. 

Nikki: Yeah. I can't say I'm really sure either. I had this concept about. Even concept, but thoughts about quiet and the quality of quiet and the desire to capture that in some way. 'cause I wanted to share that with young people and just help them to understand that, that place existed in nature.

They could have access to that for themselves whenever they need it. But I didn't know what form that was going to take. This is the relationship between the granddaughter and grandmother isn't one that [00:11:00] I enjoyed myself. I love my grandma, but that wasn't, she wasn't anything like the grandmother in the story.

So this is more. Aspiration and inspiration, like sure. I would love to have a grandmother like this. She was similar in that she was, hip and always stylish and those kinds of things. But the relationship part of it was, that was imaginary. Yeah, for sure.

And I'm not sure where the couple quiet. Came from where that title came from. It just it was one of those gifts that just hit me, along with the idea of how to express this. But I was really excited about it because I don't usually lean toward the fantastical, that whole fantasy element.

And I was like, Ooh, I wanna do more of that, oh, I love that you found delight. Yeah. So I'm leaning into that. Fact, I just this kind of leads into, to your question [00:12:00] about where ideas come from. Yeah. I just finished a book about that very thing. Where do ideas come from? Yeah. And and it was another opportunity to lean into, to fantasy, to, get that kind of idea across where I just come from.

In general though I'm pulling on my own. Yeah, I'm pulling from my own childhood memories and sometimes they're not mine. They're things that I picked up from other people because, writers are our listeners and editors we're always pulling in ideas and information and conversations.

I might be out having lunch and I'll overhear a snippet of conversation in the booth behind me and my ears will rise up and I'm like, ah. Jot that down, a line or two, whatever. So I can come back to that. And you pick up ideas and reading other people's books. Do something, some line that will worm its way into your mind.

And that will grow into an idea of your own as [00:13:00] well. Which is why it's dangerous to have a friend who's a writer because you will at some point end up in their story. Guaranteed. We have like almost no control over that. Yeah. We're just taking stuff in all the time. You're like, oh, that would be good.

Matthew: Yeah. You've trained yourself to listen so well that you can't help but notice and listen to what your other writer friends were also. So I'm gonna use you. I'm gonna use you in my story. 

Nikki: Yeah. Yeah. Not only writers, but just everyday people. Sure. I heard too young mothers bemoaning the fact that their 70-year-old daughters were talking about dieting and pinching each other's waist and that look at this fat.

And I was like, what? And that's what led me to write Halfway to Perfect as one of the Diamond Daniel books addressing this hope. Body image issue, which I never thought I'd be writing about [00:14:00] for seven year olds. Yeah. And wouldn't have, except for overhearing that conversation and realizing, wow this problem is worse than I thought if it's down to a 7-year-old, discussing it.

So I thought, oh, I have to address this. So sometimes that's where, I ideas will come from, or the inspiration or the intention will come from something that I've picked up that's just out there that people are talking about, discussing whatever. And I realize, this is an important subject for us to be, discussing and talking about.

And then I'll write a book that creates, I was gonna create an entryway for teachers, for librarians, for parents. To be able to discuss important topics with young people, have a place to go where they can start that conversation. 

Matthew: I love that you are listening in such a way that you are in some books using, or maybe all books using [00:15:00] your opportunity to tell a story.

As an invitation to engage in that topic. I noticed these parents talking this way about their children, or I noticed I overheard this conversation. I noticed that kids aren't listening to the quiet outside and I wanted to give that to them. I feel like that's an interesting way to lead yourself through what maybe you'll explore next in, in that next book that you work on.

Nikki: Yeah. Yeah, 

Matthew: not that we ever work on any one thing, but I'm no stranger to having lots of ideas and going where am I to turn my attention next? So to be able to have some sort of barometer to help nudge you in that direction, I'd imagine reinforces a why behind writing that or exploring if nothing else, that topic.

Nikki: Absolutely. Absolutely. It helps because [00:16:00] yeah, there are so many ideas rolling around in there. I love when people say, oh, how do you come up with ideas? I'm like, that's not the problem. I won't live long enough to explore all the ideas that I get.

Yeah, that's more the thing. But, yeah. Yeah. But that does help me decide also, I think about what's going on in the world at that time, because sometimes I'll get an idea and it may be a great idea, but it's not right for the time. And so that might sit for a while and I'll work on something that is more needed in that moment, and then come back to that other idea, at some other point in time.

Matthew: Yeah. I wonder also if. That is also working at what type of audience you're engaging in, whether that be a young audience through a picture book or through poetry or memoir or through something more for A YA audience. I suppose in some cases just the subject matter [00:17:00] is what would affect that.

But do you ever find yourself getting, oh, I've spent an awful lot of time in this picture book world. Maybe I should be listening to my middle grade audience again to does or, I don't know do you just go with the idea, Nikki, or do you, does it matter to you what, who you're speaking to? Or rather maybe just the message is what matters?

Nikki: I'm always, it's always about the story. So I'm following the story and sometimes I'll think it's going to be a picture book, but I'm getting stuck all the way and I'm like, okay, what's happening? I know what I wanna write. I know my characters, and yet I'm stuck. What's wrong? And sometime in exploring that, I'll discover, I'll think about the voice that the idea is coming to me in and I realize.

Oh wait, this is coming to me in the voice of a middle grader. Oh, that's why it's not working for a picture book, huh? This is supposed to be from Okay, great. And [00:18:00] as soon as I understand that the log jam is gone. And the writing can happen, and I'm like, oh. Oh, okay. Why didn't you tell me that sooner?

Matthew: That sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah. I appreciate that quote. 

Nikki: I, 

Matthew: I am often a book will lead us back together. Often you'll have some other book come out, something you're working on, something you're excited about. That's why we talk, but. Today, one of the reasons why we reconnected was because of the highlights foundation, and I know that's a special place for us both.

Yeah. But I'm realizing I didn't, in planning to talk to you, I didn't plan to talk to you about highlights, but I ought to. Could you tell me when you got involved with highlights and. Even just what it has meant to you. I don't know. I know you as a Californian who I sometimes see on the East Coast, I don't know that you're a person that goes on [00:19:00] writing retreats or if that's one of your special writing places or how you are involved.

I just know that you are an awful big supporter of them and I'm, yeah and I appreciate that. That's something that we share. I'd love to hear more though, if you don't mind. 

Nikki: No I'm trying to remember. I think I've been at least 10 years going back and forth doing sometimes workshops, but mostly writing retreats, probably anything I've written in the last 10 years.

Some part of it has been written at highlights. It's just a very nurturing environment for writers and I love that. And just the. The kind of comradery that happens when you're spending time just over meals with other creative people and bouncing off ideas and things you're wrestling with.

And it's been very positive. I love the work that they do and I'm happy to support it. I'm glad that I've been able to do that through through scholarships and such. [00:20:00] I'm always recommending people go there that I work with or have mentored in any way. And I was like, you need to go to highlights.

Just trust me. Go once and you'll understand why I sent you there. So yeah I'm very much a part of that family now and, it's, it is just a wonderful place to land. And when I'm there, it's like a second home. Yes. And and I just get phenomenal amounts of work done there because it is that supportive and they completely take care of the artists and that you could just concentrate on the work.

And you're surrounded by nature. So you have that quality and quiet, I'm talking about kinda feet on. While you're there. Yeah. It's just the best. I love their passion and commitment to to young people and the way that they do that in supporting those of us who create work for the young.

Matthew: Yes. [00:21:00] 

Nikki: Yeah. 

Matthew: They. Also connected me with a co-author of yours with Stacy Wells. We've been talking to soon about Stronger. Then. Did you know Stacy previously? It wasn't one of these, I've talked to a couple of people that have met at highlights and sometimes that leads to work or ideas sharing.

I didn't, I don't know that's a, I truly don't know anything about it. But I just was wondering if highlights had anything to do with the two of you working together? 

Nikki: No, that came about because this is going back a while when I was doing research for talking about Bessie and I, was gonna do a biography and I found out in my research that her father was Choctaw and I immediately thought, I wanted to do something with that.

So I created this character named Dante. And this story, at the time, it was a story about. And being afraid of nightmares. But the [00:22:00] solution in that original version was that his mother taught him all about dream catchers and, hung one at the foot of his bed. And it was because of the dream catcher that he was able to overcome his fears.

And for whatever reason that book didn't go anywhere at the time. And like most things, I'll send something out and if it's not moving, it goes back in my file and I figure I'll address it at some later time. Totally forgot it was there. Then a couple years ago, I started working on my estate planning and realized one of the things I needed to do was start to go through my files and identify literary product so that anybody who ended up on my files could immediately recognize those things, oh, that either needed to be archived or, submitted to my publishers or my agents, whatever.

Which meant I had to start reading whatever was in my files. I'm still working on that. I haven't gone You're reading the Collected 

Matthew: works of Nikki [00:23:00] Grimes. 

Nikki: Exactly. So I'm like, okay, is this something I'm gonna keep or archive or trash, whatever. And I come across this story and I'm like, oh yeah, I remember this.

But in the interim, the whole atmosphere has changed. And now we're talking about the importance of own. Voices. Sure. So I have this story and I'm like, I don't even know if I get to tell this story now. So I contacted Cynthia Leitich Smith, who's her friend, and I said, sin, this is what happened. What do I do with this?

Do I archive it? Do I, revamp it? What do I do? And she had a couple of ideas. She said, send it to me, which I did. And she had a couple of ideas and one was. To to revamp it in collaboration with a Choctaw author. And she mentors. So she had somebody in mind, and the person she had in mind was Stacy.

Stacy had [00:24:00] never done a picture book, but this would be an opportunity for her to be on a project where she'd learn something about that genre. And at the same time I would appreciate the support of being able to dig into aspects of that culture that I wouldn't otherwise be privy to or, particulars.

And I contacted her, we did a Zoom, met by Zoom for the first time, clicked immediately. Oh, terrific. And and so I decided, okay, I will focus on the story. You focus on the back matter. But we were both touching each side of the work. She would give me things that were helpful, that I would weave into the story.

I would do some editing on the. On, on the back matter side. So it was back and forth like that. So that's how that whole thing came together. And it was wonderful because she was able to, had to bring in just a few Choctaw words. And when I was in the process of the, [00:25:00] of revamping the story, I began to understand most importantly, that.

There were no books for this people, group for children. And I began to say, wait a minute, when you talk about black indigenous period, not just black, Afro 

Matthew: Indigenous specifically wait a minute, 

Nikki: where are the books? There were no books, absolutely at all. I'm like, oh. And when I realized that I shifted the story entirely and made it about him learning things about.

His history on both sides 

Matthew: and about Tulsa. Tulsa raised about Tulsa Massacre and about Trail of Tears. It's beautiful. I love that Eby Lewis illustrated it too. Yes. Wow. Yes. Yes. And I should say I love that. Cynthia bought, its a publish on a hard drum. It what a beautiful connection that it, all of those pieces really came together in a way.

I love that you didn't know, Stacy. I love that this [00:26:00] book. Was archived and brought back out at this timing. 'cause it really makes it a right time for this book. That's, I think, powerful to hear that we can be writing things and it can just not be the right time for it. 

Nikki: Exactly. For all kinds of reasons.

When I originally got the idea for Bronx Masquerade, I didn't yet have the skillset to write that book, and I knew it. I but I understood it was a really good idea and I didn't wanna ruin it by doing it before I was ready. So I set it aside. I worked on other things, built up my skillset, writing other novels till I got to a place where I felt like, okay, now I can do this.

And I also had an editor who I knew would hold my feet to the fire and not let that book go until it was ready. And that was really critical because as the author, you don't always know, okay, it's important to have [00:27:00] that second pair of eyes and to have that kind of trust that your editor's not gonna let it go until it is exactly right.

And I had that. And so then that was when I sat down to do that story. And that was a few years after the original, I had the original idea, yes. And I waited probably like maybe five, six years before I sat down to write that book. Which has now been around forever. 

Matthew: It's a good lesson to hear though. I don't, I don't know that we talked about new authors, young authors.

I don't know that anybody knows or realizes that you don't it. It's okay if it doesn't happen right now. 

Nikki: Yeah, 

Matthew: it's okay. I think that. Maybe even we talk about children today and just, I've been teaching for 20 years. It's different. It's different now for children than it was 20 years ago. So I wonder in that way, if it's any different for writers to, to or any of us in this world who are just starting out in this world to feel like if I don't do [00:28:00] it now, if it doesn't happen now.

Does that mean that I just, I won't ever be able to do it. Yeah. It's just hard. What a terrible pressure. But I'm grateful that you're able to share with me with so many other people that it's okay. You have other stories, but also those stories you write not only get you to the next story, but they might just not be ready yet.

It might, the world might not be ready yet. 

Nikki: Yeah. Yeah. And you want it to be the very best it can be. And that may be waiting. 

Matthew: Might mean waiting. Yeah. Yeah. Trusting. Nikki, I'm so glad that we got to talk today. I got a reminder that our time is running out, but our time always runs out. I know. And it's always at this moment where I'm like, Ooh, I can't wait to talk to her next time.

We, we are overdue for seeing each other in real life too. It came to remember that it's been a pandemic since we've seen each other. I'll look forward to watching for opportunities when you're in my neck of the woods that I can [00:29:00] come see you. 

Until then, I'd like to ask you this question that I've asked you before about those students that I'll get to see when our fall break wraps up here.

Upon recording this, Nikki, I'll see a library full of children very soon. Is there a message that I can bring to them from you? 

Nikki: That their own stories are worth writing about.