Leaving It Messy with Torrey Maldonado

Torrey Maldonado, author of Just Right (Nancy Paulsen Books), illustrated by Teresa Martínez, joins Matthew to talk about finding and sticking to your places.

Listen along:

About the book: Just Right by Torrey Maldonado; Illustrated by Teresa Martínez. Published by Nancy Paulsen Books.

Award-winning novelist Torrey Maldonado’s heartwarming picture book debut celebrates loving caregivers and highlights the powerful impact they can have on the life of a child.

Toby’s mom always says there are people that make you feel just right. And while his dad can be hard to please, it’s a different story with his amazing uncle. Uncle showers Toby with smiles, hugs, and kind words, and his garage is like a second home to Toby—there’s even a chair with Toby’s name on it next to Uncle’s desk! Yes, Toby can always count on Uncle to step up and make him feel just right.

More:

Visit Torrey Maldonado online at torreymaldonado.com 

Other helpful links:

• Torrey Maldonado at Boyds Mills

Learn more about Boyds Mills and their upcoming programs by visiting www.boydsmills.org.

Transcript:

NOTE: Transcript created by Descript. I've attempted to clean up any typos, grammatical errors, and formatting errors where possible.

Matthew: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Children’s Book Podcast, where we celebrate the books and creators who help young readers feel seen, supported, and understood. This episode is brought to you in partnership with Boyds Mills, positively impacting kids by amplifying the voices of storytellers who inspire children to become their best selves.

I’m your host, Matthew Winner—teacher, librarian, writer, and a fan of kids.

A quick reminder before we begin: if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, you can enjoy ad-free listening and early access to episodes by subscribing to TCBP +Plus for just $0.99 a month. Just tap the banner in the app to learn more.

Today, I’m thrilled to welcome back Torrey Maldonado, an award-winning novelist and a returning guest to the podcast, who is joining us to celebrate his picture book debut, Just Right (Nancy Paulsen Books).

Just Right is a heartfelt story about the adults in our lives who help us feel safe, valued, and exactly who we’re meant to be. Toby’s mom says there are people who make you feel “just right,” and for Toby, that person is his uncle. Whether it’s the warmth of Uncle’s garage, the steady encouragement he offers, or simply the way he shows up with hugs and kind words, Uncle creates a space where Toby knows he belongs.

Here’s a clip from the audiobook, read by the author.

Audiobook: I'm at the garage. The garage feels right. This is where I come a lot after school. The workers can fix any car. Some days I pretend I'm a race car driver.

Matthew: With tenderness and emotional clarity, Torrey brings his signature insight into children’s inner lives to the picture book format, celebrating loving caregivers and the profound impact they can have on a child’s sense of self.

I’m so excited to talk with Torrey about making the leap to picture books, the relationships that shape us, and what it means to help kids feel—just right.

Please welcome Torrey Maldonado back to the Children’s Book Podcast.

Torrey: Hi. My name is Torrey Maldonado and I am a teacher. I'm an author. I. Lived in Brooklyn all my life, so I'm a Brooklynite and I am a fierce advocate for uplifting children and giving adults the tools to uplift children. 

Matthew: Yes, Torrey, I'm glad you're back. [00:03:00] Tell me, my friend, especially since I've had the privilege of talking to you off record for a bit, for a minute, tell me what's giving you hope today?

Torrey: Oh. There's so many things that give me hope I'm so excited about just right, because the hope is that just right will make the world feel more just right. Another hope of mine is for the 30 years that I've been teaching a big wave has been teach kids. How to find their just right book.

And I'm really excited that just my picture book is gonna teach kids how to find their just right people and find their just right spaces. So it gives me hope that kids are gonna do that. I'm also very hopeful that more kids' moods will flip from down to up as a result of just

Matthew: yes.

That's beautiful. I'm writing down, I constantly processing by writing. [00:04:00] 

Torrey: I'm glad you're writing down because the moments where I pause and you see me looking down, that's what I'll be doing too. My brothers from other mothers. 

Matthew: Yeah. That's how I revisit. 

Torrey: Yeah, 

Matthew: just write people. Just write places is something that resonates with me a lot.

Can you please share before we go too deep a book talk of just right. For all of us readers who have not yet encountered it. 

Torrey: Yeah. Just write is a love letter to uncles and to caregivers. It encourages young people to find and stick to their, just write people in places. It's very much the TLC.

Don't go chasing waterfalls. Stick to the lakes in the rivers you're used to. Message of love is being served somewhere. So go find it, go feel the love. If this is my debut picture book and I can hardly believe that [00:05:00] it's gonna be out in the world in January because all my life I've wanted to write a picture book and I didn't know if I could and.

I guess the impossible was made possible. I'm really also excited about just right, because just right is going to take me into the world of elementary classrooms and that world is so full of honesty and amazing energy and pure. Inquisitiveness. It's such a fantastic world that I'm really looking forward to author visits and being a part of your world.

Matthew: I've, I have two things if you'll allow me to share with you. The first is to be in front of that primary audience, that picture book audience. Picture books are for everybody, [00:06:00] but also your book. Works with younger children, right? There are some picture books that are written for an older child in mind.

Your book works for younger children, which means you are writing these novels. You continue to write novels, but when you write a novel, it's really a conversation between you, the author and the reader, and your characters, of course, but author and reader.

When you write a picture book, it's a conversation between the author.

And the reader, the librarian, the parent and the audience, the child, the children, the class it's a little bit wider. It's a little bit opened up. It's a little bit more, maybe we would say of a production of a drama 

Than reading a novel might be because it's performed 

In the best way.

Picture books are performed, they're read aloud and performed, and so I'm glad that you get to debut in that space. 

Torrey: Thank you. 

Matthew: Because it's a wonderful [00:07:00] space to be in, Torrey. Thank you. And my second thing I wanted to say is a compliment to say I've spoken to a good number of people, as who have written picture books and who have also written novels.

From reading my questions coming into this interview. That There's something about this picture book, though that moved me in a different way. And so I realized as you were pro, as you were saying it, I processed that. Oh, it's because this picture book is really a picture book written from the voice of Tight and from the voice of hands.

And I love that. Torrey, you wrote a picture book That's, I wonder what kind of picture book Torrey would write and it is just right. Literally and figuratively. It is just right. So compliments to you, my friend. I'm very much looking forward to digging into more of this story with you, but I wanted to make sure upfront that I told you while you really have been able to pull off the craft of voice in a novel can be translated to voice [00:08:00] in a picture book.

They're not they don't need to be two different voices, so to speak. 

Torrey: I really I'm gra I'm grabbing those compliments with both of my hands and I'm holding on to them. I know the value of that compliment too because, we've known each other for a while. You've had me on to talk about my novels.

I've listened to your podcast. When you've had other guests, so you know what's out there. So for you to compliment my book, you know that, that's a huge compliment. So thank you. 

Matthew: I mean it, it, I not only know what's out there in, in terms of the very small number of books I can ever actually read, but I do know the people that are out there, I do know.

500 will say. Kids pretty well. 

Let me jump in yeah. To your story, because the conflict really that anchors your story is is around this quote that Toby, the main character, the main kid Toby's mom says, if a person ain't right, they won't make you feel right.

Torrey: Love. 

Matthew: To [00:09:00] hear more from you about this quote, if a person ain't right, they won't make you feel right. Torrey, is that a phrase you heard before? Something that you've been teaching for 30 years. We hear things. I didn't know if this was a childhood message, something you internalize, something from teaching, just some truth that happened to you.

Tell me more about that phrase. 'cause it's a good one. It resonates. 

Torrey: That's a phrase that I created. 

Matthew: Love it. Good. 

Torrey: I've been on panels I've been, in our kid Lit world, at NCTs, at alas at the conferences, and I've had the good fortune of good people. Tell me, what did you just say?

You need to write that down. You need to copyright that. You need to not say that again. And you need to put that in the book. So this is, oh, that quote what you just quoted. That was something that was in my mind and I didn't share with anybody. I just put it on the page and I didn't know how it would hit.

So thank you for telling me it hits [00:10:00] 

Matthew: well I don't want to give away the second half to the quote, because you lay out this beautiful comfort from mom to Toby early on in the story when Toby's dad is unresponsive of this gift that he gives maybe inattentive, maybe we don't really know what we don't have.

The spotlight really on what's going on with dad. That he would react this way in this one moment that we, the audience witness. 

But we do revisit that quote later with mom and expand on it. Round it out. And that's beautiful too. Can I 

Torrey: share something 

Matthew: please, 

Torrey: Matthew? You before we hit record what listeners don't know is that you and I were having a conversation and one of the things that we were talking about was why the picture book format why it's so magical. Sure. And one thing that we did mention in that pre-recording conversation I wanna mention now is I love.

Picture books because they can [00:11:00] take adult concepts and sim simply word it. Sure. In a way where anyone gets it.

Matthew: Maybe we would say distill, right? 

Torrey: Yeah. I love that 

Matthew: because sometimes we can picture books unfortunately run the risk of. Deceiving people that it's a simple format and it's really maybe one of the most complex, especially all those lasting picture books.

Those forever books are such a great artist. Craft example. But it's very hard to recreate yeah. Because you have to be able to speak not only to that child at whatever age they are, but also wherever they're 

Torrey: absolutely 

Matthew: approaching your book. When you have a novel that kid's got a couple sittings to stick with that character.

You have a picture book, you have one sitting with how, however you show up that one day, but you also are speaking to those grownups. You're [00:12:00] sharing in. In a moment together that, I don't mean to make it feel more weighted than it is. Maybe I just tend to feel like that space is sacred to me.

Torrey: Yeah. Yeah. And I wanted to share that the there's a message that adults share that should be shared in the sacred space of elementary aged readers. And we've heard adults say, hurt people. Sure. And that's connected to the idea that comes out in just right. That if a person ain't right, they're not gonna make you feel right.[00:13:00] 

And that's. Connected to the idea that comes out in just right. That if a person ain't right, they're not gonna make you feel right. 

Matthew: I'm glad you brought that up because when I walked away from this story, there were so many things that were coming to my head. And some of it is from my years of therapy thinking about you can't change people, you can only change yourself.

So just to give listeners context that haven't read this book Toby. Attempts to give this gift. He buys two sets of socks in the beginning of the book. He's gonna give one to his dad. He's gonna give one to his uncle, and his dad doesn't react at all. Just we see [00:14:00] in the illustration just staring at his phone.

And then that's where we get mom saying after Toby questions himself, did I do something wrong? Did he not like it? I should have gotten something different. It's all my fault. Mom says, if a person ain't right, they won't make you feel right. And also says, go visit your uncle.

Torrey: Yeah. 

Matthew: And uncle has a different reaction, a much kinder, generous reaction.

But still walking away from the book, I thought of these phrases that I've heard before. You can't change people. You can only change yourself, or he's the only dad you've got. It even made me think about what happens after this story because we don't just stay with uncle and we also can't just abandoned dad.

This is how Dad showed up in that moment. We don't know what's going on with dad that's causing him to be inattentive. That's where he is that, but you leave us there in a what happens next space. I wrote to you that I respect you not leaving [00:15:00] things tidy. I like leaving things messy because that allows, as you know too, when you leave a question unanswered at the end of class, we're gonna come back to that tomorrow.

You'll leave it unanswered deliberately. So that. When we leave that class, we can be thinking about it all day so that when we return to class tomorrow, then we can really dig in. 'cause our brains have been trying to turn that Rubik's cube, trying to puzzle it out. Does that come, does that quality, I'm again I'm projecting onto you, man.

This is teacher to teacher. Yeah. Does that quality come from just you wanting to be honest with kids? Is that a teacher quality you? You make a really beautiful balance between letting us see that Toby is loved in a way that he can really receive from his uncle. But we also sit with knowing he's not going back to, he's not gonna stay with his uncle.

He's going back to his house where his mom is. That's right. And his dad is, [00:16:00] talk to me if you don't mind about. That honesty. The what's compelling you to be honest to kids in that way? 

Torrey: Yeah. There, there's a lot to unpack with that question, so Sure. I wanna start with talking about what you first said.

You can't change people, you can change yourself, yeah, it's true. You can't control people, but you can control your reaction and that's something that comes through in just right. Yeah, you can't change Dad, Toby, go see your uncle. And he changes his reaction. He goes and he sees his uncle.

I love that you said, I left the book messy, and one of the reasons is

all the years that I've published my novels, I've gotten that reaction. From young people. Why did you leave the book like that? 

Matthew: Yeah. 

Torrey: I have so many questions. 

Matthew: I told you it's the guy that wrote those novels, wrote this picture [00:17:00] book, 

Torrey: right? And that's the same thing that I had hoped I would do with my picture book.

You asked earlier what were some of my hopes and I shared some of my hopes, and if I could sneak in another hope, one of my hopes is that. Just right will be a conversation starter. The way all of my novels are conversation starters, and this is where I have to give a hat tip to an amazing K to five librarian who's approaching her 27th year of teaching in Columbus, Ohio.

Beth Palmer gave just right the highest compliment about its messiness. She said she read just right to. Different classes and she's ne hasn't seen kids react to a picture book the way kids reacted to just write Since Each Kindness by Jacqueline Woodson. 

Matthew: Beautiful. 

Torrey: And she said at the end of every read [00:18:00] aloud of just right, each class erupted with, wait, what?

It can't be over it. And they were inspired to talk more. And that's what really is at the heart of me being a teacher and me being a writer. I want my lessons. I want my books to be

ignition. I want them to ignite learners and listeners and readers. And the, one of the best compliments I've gotten with each one of my books is you need to write a sequel because then it allows me to flip the question back on to the young persons and say, what would you want to happen next? Go write that book.

And I'm really hoping that in the same way I've inspired young. [00:19:00] Readers and writers to try to write in a novel format. I hope that young, elementary age kids will feel inspired to maybe work with their teachers to make picture books of what would happen next after just right. What does, what happens when Toby goes home to dad because Toby is gonna go back.

To dad. You were talking about my, my desire to leave things messy and I wanted to share something that happened. So it was tight. I was invited to speak at middle school, and I go to the middle school. And after the middle school, the staff presented me with this basket. And in the basket there was this mug.

And on the mug was a quote by. A youth worker who used to work there, and the quote from Mr. Smalls was, kids need to know how much you care before [00:20:00] they care about how much and what I want kids to know from all of my books is that I care and that I care about how they feel, but I care about.

What solutions they come up with. So that involves leaving my books messy so that they could think how do we all clean up this mess? And the truth is, kids are messy. I've been, I'm approaching 30 years of teaching. Middle school students are messy. Elementary school students are messy. I teach in a building where there are high school students too.

High school students are messy adults. Your life, my life. We're messy in some places. And so that presents realness. And I believe that readers, when they come face to face with realness, real recognizes real. And this is one of the kids say I feel these characters are real. And so far that's been the message in the bottle washing, washing up on my shores is that young readers.

[00:21:00] Feel that Toby is real, that his uncle is real, that his dad is a real dad, and that, this is really happening in their real lives. 

Matthew: Yeah. And again, compliments that you expanded the form of a picture book in such a way that. It doesn't keep things neat. It doesn't keep things neat because you're not telling the readers, here's how we solve this problem.

Instead, by leaving it the way you do, you're telling readers, I know you've got this. I know you can talk after and figure this out, because some of your readers are gonna go, oh, I have an uncle just like that, or, my dad is like that, uncle, or. My uncle is like that. Dad, we can project ourselves onto this book and think if you were going home to this person, what might you do?

How might you react? What might be the ways that you [00:22:00] find how to get your needs met? Where do you find that love, that support, that person speaking your language. Now, where do you find a means of understanding the people that don't? Yeah, I think what you got there. Yeah. The best way I can say it.

I know I said the words messy or untidy. It's my way of saying you didn't tell the kid this happens and here's how you solve it. 

Because that doesn't work. 

And more so it'll mean something more if. I give you the keys to solve it yourself. Yeah. And you've done that.

And I appreciate that. That's what I'm saying about keeping it honest with kids. 

Torrey: Yeah. 

Matthew: Is to be able to walk into a room and say, I know you know how to do this. I'm gonna show you where there is love and where that, what that love can look like or what that support can look like. But there's love there.

There's love there. That dad is in the house. That mom has the words that mom says, go see your uncle. There's a lot of support there for [00:23:00] Toby. But also there's a lot of space there for Toby to go, I see what's going on in my world and here are the steps I can take next time to make sure that I get just what I need.

Torrey: Yeah. You Matthew, the school library journal 

Matthew: Yeah. 

Torrey: Did a review of just and they said they've never. Experience the picture book quite like it. 

Matthew: Yeah, I told you it expands the form. 

Torrey: Thank you. And one of the things that came out in that SLJ review was Betsy Bird. She couldn't believe how the dad was portrayed. She said he's a hundred percent real. He's a hundred percent honest. He's a hundred percent in every kid's life who will pick up just right. And she said, however, she's never seen that dad in any picture book before.

[00:24:00] And the thing about the dad is he's not mean. 

Matthew: Yeah. 

Torrey: He's checked out. He's tuned in, but he's not tuned into his son. He's tuned into his cell phone. I have to say, I was scared to, to write the dad that way because coming with a picture book, I wanted to, I want, was looking at other picture books and saying, I, this book feels like it's playing safe.

That book feels like it's playing it safe. Maybe I should just play it safe and. I love Miles Morales, the superhero, and he takes his leap of faith. So I have to borrow that phrase, leap of faith. I had to take a leap of faith and say, no, Tori, do with this picture book. What you do with your novels. You gotta go there and you have to be real.

And so that's why you got a real dad who we really know. No matter where we go. Yeah. Inside, just right. I I wanted to,

Matthew: Can I, yeah, absolutely. [00:25:00] Just add onto the, just if you don't mind, because again, for the writers that are listening to, if I can just give the example of what we have here with this dad.

What I've seen in a lot of books that I've read is either an illustrator adds these characters, they're not explicitly mentioned in text, so an illustrator adds them. Therefore, the character is nothing. They're just wallpaper. That's not bad. It helps build a scene, but they're just there. They're not.

They don't affect the story in any way or the other way. Sometimes we get characters that are, I need dad to be anger personified or to be injustice personified, or to be neglect personified. And we don't have that either. And that's I think where I where I come back to that honesty is that sometimes adults are just there.

And we need something from them, but they're just there. 

So yeah. 

Torrey: Yeah. 

Matthew: Good on you, man. 

Torrey: No, thank you. Thank you. I shared, I confess that I'm, I was scared writing that the dad and being real, and also leaving things messy. I gotta share something

[00:26:00] else that I was fearful of.

I was fearful of how young people and educators would respond. So when you, as an educator responded with those compliments, and when I get, other. Educators like, miss Par out in Ohio and, and then Betsy Bird, and I'm getting the feedback is it tells me it's okay to take risks, because with risks come reward.

What one of the things you were talking about, you were talking about being inside a elementary classroom. Yeah. With the picture book and what that's and I have we were talking about phrases earlier and you had mentioned, the phrase that I came up with. I gotta share phrases that I didn't come up with and I can't attribute, I can't accredit who came up with these phrases, but I heard we are the change that we're waiting for.

Matthew: Oh, I love that phrase. Yeah. 

Torrey: And with just i'm really glad that you said what you said. [00:27:00] Kids are gonna have that conversation where, okay, this is now what? Like, why is this real? How does this connect to us? Does the dad remind you of somebody you know, what do you think about that? Does the uncle remind you of someone you know?

Okay, now what are you gonna do with those just right people, the garage. Do you have a space that's like his garage? Okay. So now that you know that love could be served in these places, what are you going to do? I really feel like. That is nurturing change agents. Yeah. On a elementary age level.

And I'm really excited about being in, in classrooms and hearing those conversations and participating in those conversations around just I feel as though there's so much wisdom that comes out of the mouths of babes, and we gotta respect the wisdom in the room. Okay. So I can't wait. I can't, I'm so excited to be a part.

Matthew: Ooh, Torrey, can I give you a, can I give you a phrase before we go? I'm watching our time. We're running outta time. 

Torrey: Yeah. 

Matthew: But do you ever do ed camps? [00:28:00] Remember Ed camps? 

Torrey: Yeah. The nerd camps. 

Matthew: NN before, before nerd camp was EDC camp, ed Camp was a no, I 

Torrey: don't know. 

Matthew: Cool. Came up in education.

Nerd camp was nerdy book club, right? Nerdy book club. Doing EDC camp. And EDC camp is a is a conference run by educators where you go in and there's no agenda. You all show up in this big room. You make the agenda by people in the room saying, here's the things I wanna talk about. Here's the things I wanna learn about.

Okay, you wanna learn, we organize all the ideas. You wanna learn about that thing. Go to this room, that thing, go to this room. And the quote I want to give you, because it's a beautiful thing to carry into other spaces, is when you're in a room in EDC camp, the line is the smartest person in the room is the room itself.

Torrey: Yes. 

Matthew: It's a humbling decentering line. And if you carry that into education, you'll be all right. But the smartest person in the room is the room itself. We combined 

Are the knowledge of this room. Tori, I'm gonna be in. Library soon. So I'm [00:29:00] gonna ask you, but first I wanna say on record, I am grateful that of all the people in my world that have brought us back together, it was the good folks at the Highlights foundation.

Yes. How about you? Never did I, I know I know my journey with highlights. I can't wait to talk another day with you about your journey with highlights, because I love that. But in our 90 seconds left, I will lovingly. Ask you that I will see a library full of children tomorrow morning. Torrey Maldonado. Is there a message I can bring to them from you?

Torrey: Yes, absolutely. Shout out to highlights, shout out to the program manager Alison Meyer. And shout out to everybody there because I've had so many moments there that I've. I remember for a long time, and I probably remember for a lifetime, and I've had so many relationships there that I that have been around for a long time and probably for a lifetime.

So we have to head nod to highlights, and I wanna [00:30:00] share a message that has the word highlight in it. Dr. King said it, I think it was Dr. King who said, it's always the right time. To do the right thing. He said something like that, and I might have messed that up, but I don't wanna say that it's always the right time to be a highlight to somebody, and there's always a time to be a highlight to somebody.

So I would just ask you to go to the kids and say, give them a challenge and say, in what way today? Can you be a highlight to somebody?