Kari Lavelle, the author of the Butt or Face? series (Sourcebooks) and Ode to Grapefruit: How James Earl Jones Found His Voice (Alfred A. Knopf Books for Young Readers), illustrated by Bryan Collier, talks about the research before the research in crafting her unique nonfiction series that uses play to engage readers of all ages.
Listen along:
About the book: Butt or Face? by Kari Lavelle. Published by Sourcebooks Explore.
Can YOU tell a butt from a face? Discover fascinating facts about animals with this hilarious guessing game picture book!
Butt or Face offers kids a delightfully cheeky challenge: examine a close-up photo of an animal, and then guess whether you're looking at the top or the...um...bottom. The answer is revealed on the next page with a complete photo of the animal! Also included are factual animal details along with how these animals use camouflage or other trickery to engage with their home. Readers will discover animals like the Cuyaba dwarf frog whose backside looks like a pair of eyes, the Mary River turtle that breathes through its butt, and many more!
About the book: Butt or Face?: Vol 2: Revenge of the Butts by Kari Lavelle. Published by Sourcebooks Explore.
Are you ready for round two of the hilarious guessing game picture book? Discover fascinating facts about animals while guessing if you're looking at a butt or a face!
Butt or Face? Volume 2 continues the delightfully cheeky challenge with a whole new set of animals from all over the world. Examine a close-up photo of an animal and then guess whether you're looking at the top or the...um...bottom. The answer is revealed on the next page with a complete photo of the animal! Also included are factual animal details along with how these animals use camouflage or other trickery to engage with their home. Readers will discover animals like the alien butt spider who turns leaves into burrito-like hideaways, the leaf-tailed gecko whose body mimics the leaves and bark of a tree, and many more!
About the book: Ode to Grapefruit: How James Earl Jones Found His Voice by Kari Lavelle; illustrated by Bryan Collier. Published by Alfred A. Knopf Books for Young Readers.
Before legendary actor James Earl Jones was recognized for his memorable, smooth voice, he was just James--a stutterer who stopped speaking for eight years as a child...and ultimately found his voice through poetry.
Before there was Mufasa...Before there was Darth Vader... There was a young boy names James Earl Jones, who spoke with a stutter and dreaded having to talk in class.
Whenever James tried to voice his thoughts, his words got stuck in his throat. But James figured out a solution for his shame: if he didn't speak, he wouldn't stutter.
And so he was silent...until he wrote his own poem, Ode to Grapefruit, and found a love for poetry.
Lyrical text, stunning art, and compelling backmatter about stuttering pair together for a remarkable picture book about how a boy who refused to speak for eight years learned to manage his stutter through poetry--and grew up to become an EGOT-winning performer with a voice few could forget.
INTRO
Matthew: Welcome back to the Children’s Book Podcast, where we dive deep into the world of creativity, storytelling, and the magic behind the art of creating books for children.
I’m your host, Matthew Winner. Teacher. Librarian. Writer. Fan of kids.
Today, we are thrilled to have a guest whose clever and humorous storytelling has brought joy, wonder, and laughter to young readers. Actually, to my very readers here in Columbia, Maryland, as well as to kids all around the globe.
Joining us is the wonderful Kari Lavelle, the talented author of the hilarious Butt or Face? series (Sourcebooks) and the beautiful Ode to Grapefruit: How James Earl Jones Found His Voice (Alfred A. Knopf Books for Young Readers).
Kari’s Butt or Face? books are a unique nonfiction series that uses play to engage readers of all ages, combining education with humor in a way that captivates and delights. In Ode to Grapefruit: How James Earl Jones Found His Voice, Kari draws on her work as a speech pathologist to create a book that is both moving and inspiring. And did I mention that it’s illustrated by the exceptionally talented Bryan Collier?
In this episode, we’ll explore Kari’s creative process, the pandemic-timed inspiration behind her series, and what it takes to craft stories that both educate and resonate with young readers. Whether you’re an author, an illustrator, or a lover of children’s books, this conversation is sure to inspire and entertain.
So, without further ado, let’s welcome Kari Lavelle to the show!
INTERVIEW
Kari: Hi, I'm Kari Lavelle. My pronouns are she, her, and I am the author of We Move the World, illustrated by Nabi H. Ali, the Butt or Face series, and Ode to Grapefruit: How James Earl Jones Found His Voice, illustrated by Brian Collier, which will be out at the end of this month.
Matthew: Look how nonchalantly you say illustrated by Brian Collier.
That's what a great trick. Oh my gosh.
Kari: I mean, I'm still pinching myself that he's the illustrator. No, really, really. Yeah.
Matthew: He’s exceptional. He is exceptional. Yeah. I can't
Kari: wait for, yeah. His art is amazing. I'm so excited for everyone to see, uh, how he just, just his phenomenal illustrations.
Matthew: Yeah. And you can tell he, there's a great number of illustrators that their voice is.
Their voice is so distinct in their illustrations, and Brian is one of them, Aqua Holmes is one of them, there's just a number that we could say that right away, you know, you know, it's their art because It just speaks with that, with that voice.
Kari: Yes. I feel super lucky that he signed on to this project. So yes, let's,
Matthew: let's, let's come back to Ode to Grapefruit because the thing that brings us together today is, well, I think if I, if I, if I worded the best way I possibly can, the thing that really brings us together is book experience that is is a playful shared moment experience with my readers.
It's one of those, Kari, it's one of those, I've had a couple people that I've interviewed where it was, this book has made such a moment or a bond between my students and myself. That I'm, I'm excited to talk to you because I feel like, oh, we, we have, my kids and I have a, a shared experience about your book.
Now I just get to hear about how you made it, but I also get to pour on some love because it's, hopefully you're getting lots of love from your readers. But I can tell you from this reader and from our 500 readers at my school, um, we, we really love and delight in your books.
Kari: Oh, thank you so much. I have been so surprised at how much love this book has received.
I really have been. I just, I, you know, I didn't even think it would sell to be honest, you know, so, so this whole last year, uh, of Butt or Face? has been super thrilling for me to hear about, uh, everyone's, uh, I'm just having a good time with this and learning from it. So yeah, I've, I've been, um, yeah, I've, I've just been so, I've had such a great year.
It's been so fun to, to be able to have a book out there that people are enjoying. I'm hearing from, uh, educators that reluctant readers are really into this. I'm hearing about teenagers that are putting down phones and joining families to play this game. So I'm hearing about like. grandparents and it's really fun.
Yeah, that's
Matthew: really neat. Really appreciate that. Thank you. We might not, and this is okay. We might not be able to name what it is about it and that's okay. I've crafted some questions ahead of time and given them to you in order for us to play around with trying to detangle that, but without without dismissing the, the wonder and magic that sometimes the right words, the right idea, the right time, the right design just works.
And, and, and I don't at all want to dismiss that. Why don't you first describe for those that haven't come across the book yet, what's the conceit of the butt or face books? How do they, how do they work? Or really, what would a, reader encounter when they pick up one of these books?
Kari: Sure. Yeah. So it's basically a game within the pages of a book.
Um, the reader will see a closeup photo of a butt or a face. And so they're asked to guess if it's a butt or a face. And then the next page is a reveal of what the animal is. And then some fascinating facts to help, you know, it is an educational experience, but hopefully it's a silly, engaging one too. So, um, Yeah, I, I think you're, you're spot on about all of that though, though.
I think it really was kind of the, the team at Sourcebooks really put it together in, in such a way that, um, makes this effective, the most effective.
Matthew: I would love to ask you about those pieces. Yes, because it is a game. The page turns are, is it a butt or a face with a cropped image in the middle of the page?
And then on the turn, we see the full picture, but as you're saying, there's, there's.
There's not just the reveal and the answer. There's a lot going on on that following page and where I found a lot of really wonderful pull with readers is that somehow the form, whatever is working here, it makes it that it's not just, is it a butter face?
There's the answer. Butterface. There's the answer. Butterface is the answer. My kids want to know, what is it? Can you read the other fact? Can you read that other paragraph? Can you do that? There's essentially three. paragraphs, three captions, three pieces of text that accompany each reveal. So talk to me about that.
When you were ideating, when you were pitching this book, when you had drafted any, whatever the stage is, what did the inspiration and the, the start, the seed look like? And how did we get to what? The format looks like now.
Kari: Sure. So it, I participated in a StoryStorm in January, 2021. Right. And so that's Tara Lazar StoryStorm.
It's where it's a challenge to come up with 30 story ideas in that month. And I love, um, I try to do. I do it every third, every January. Um, I love that it puts me in that place of looking for a story potential everywhere. And so I was reading an email from Atlas Obscura about how farmers in Botswana paint eyes on the back of their cattle.
And because of that, it confuses predators. And so I was thinking to myself, um, you know, as that lioness is approaching that cow and she sees these painted eyes, I'm, I'm imagining. You know, as one does what she's thinking, is that a butt or a face? And so I, that got, I was feeling curious about other animals.
And so I, that started me down a research rabbit hole of animal butts and faces. And, um, so that's where the, the story originated. And then, um, I worked on it, you know, it was during the pandemic and not a particularly, Uh, creative time for me. And so I was just thrilled to have something that was exciting to me and I was having fun with it and it just, it didn't necessarily feel like a project that was going to sell.
I did not think that my agent would even be into it, but I thought I, I'm into this, I'm having fun, I'm feeling creative. And so I worked on that about six months before I sent it to my agent and, um, you know, wondered with trepidation what she would really say, but she liked it and she sent it out and.
Submission and, um, Kelly Barella Sailor at Sourcebooks, uh, immediately connected with it. And, um, I'm just so thankful for her vision and the team's vision. So it really, it started out when I sent the manuscript, I had close up photos of. of images I just got from the internet. You
Matthew: included that as well as like a proof of concept.
Kari: That's right. And so then there was a page turn. So it was like a closeup photo. And then on the next word doc page was the page turn. And so, and then I had really, I just had one paragraph of facts. And then it was Kelly's idea to turn that she, it was her idea to do the beyond the backside and face the facts, which
Matthew: I
Kari: thought that was brilliant.
And so then, so I took that and, and made sure that we had kind of the explanation, factual explanation of why that butt or face was chosen. And then your lead
Matthew: text.
Kari: That's right. Got it. And then an additional sidebar, sidebar. And, um, and, and of course the corny jokes in there. So I, all the puns that I could come up with, um, with.
So, um, and so she, I, I also once. it sold. And I should also add, she offered a two book deal without knowing that I had a whole spreadsheet of animals that I would love to do more. Oh wow. She didn't know that I had a series vision. No, but she
Matthew: knew, she knew the potential from your pitch.
Kari: Yes. Which is
Matthew: perhaps an even stronger, more compelling thing.
She didn't see your list. She could, she could feel the potential alongside you. I mean, you even said your, your, your, your manuscript, the thing you gave them, you, you basically played with them, Kari. Yes. You were like, let's play the game in miniature. Here's my prototype, I guess. Yes. Yes.
Kari: That's
Matthew: great.
Kari: Yes, it is.
I, when I said it to my critique partners, one of my critique partners, it didn't, it wasn't a closeup photo. Like for some reason when it sent to her, it wasn't the closeup and she was kind of like, uh, okay. I don't know what. It's exactly what
Matthew: it is. It's a giraffe car. I see a head and a butt. It's both.
Yeah.
Kari: So when we gathered for our critique, she was kind of like, uh, okay, now I get it. But, um, And anyways, so, um, I, yeah, source books, they give me photo licensing websites to
Matthew: look at. Because they have paid or they have, they have a, whatever you would call it, they have a licensing deal. They have a, I've done this in music with podcasts, that there are sites where I pay a, month, a licensing fee.
And it gives me access to these things. A similar thing exists for photos.
Kari: That's right. I don't need the payment details, but that's okay. Create a collection of photos that could work for that animal. And, and I had to make sure that, you know, if they wanted to switch it up, that it's the right species. I have a, there's a whole team of experts that helped me with this.
I'm so grateful. I have, um, my neighbors are entomologists. And they're at UT.
Matthew: That sounds like a picture book, by the way, or a novel. Our neighbors are entomologists.
Kari: It's true. I mean, I, um, at school visits, I like to tell kids about these neighbors. I have a picture of them showing the team of experts because at, at the, at Halloween, their house is the place to go.
Cause they bring all these cool, you know, like hissing cockroaches. They have a petting zoo. That's right. They don't give away candy. It's. So cool. Um, so yeah, a team of experts, uh, a friend who's an ornithologist and, um, uh, friends in different zoos. It's there, there's, they've been amazing and happy to help.
I'm also, you know, contacting people. Sometimes there's not a photo in those licensing websites. And so I have to randomly reach out to the one person who has. The photograph I need. Oh,
Matthew: and ask if you can have permission to use, license, whatever. Right. So, so far it's worked out. Yeah. Well, let me ask from there then, so you had, at whatever point, you have two books out now.
There are two more on the way, but you have this. database, this list of animals that you've come across that you think would work. I'm sure then going in and looking at more pictures has caused more discovery or readers have said, what about that? I'm sure it, one begets the other, which is wonderful. I felt in reading both of the books, Butt or Face and, and Butt or Face Revenge of the Butts.
Um, it felt to me like the menagerie of animals, Put forth was really trying to be, here's animals some of you are going to know and some you're not, here's some that look adjacent to ones that you might know, here's some that are just going to be, you won't be able to stop talking about it, it really felt, it felt intentional, it felt like there was something there, is that the case?
And in that case, are you sort of working with that hand in mind? as you look at future books.
Kari: I'm, I'm so glad that you, that it comes across that way. Cause it's, it's very intentional. I mean that the research before the research is the hardest part for me, cause it's like a big logic puzzle where I'm, I mean, I think the first factor is which are the best, which animals have the best butts and the best faces that are going to fit into this.
And I'll be honest, no one's coming to this book to read mostly about faces. It needs to be at least 50 percent butts, right? I mean,
Matthew: and the best as you can get a, I knew right away about caterpillars having butts that look like faces. for that purpose. But there is this game, a side game that my kids play, which you've read to kids, you're feeling that, where your text says, what do you see here?
Is it a butt or a face? And does not say the animal at all. And so I have kids playing a side game of, oh, I know what that is. Oh, that's a this or that's a that. And it just becomes, oh, there's so much more than this surface game that's in the title. There's a lot more than that going on. Which is fascinating to have them play that game.
Kari: I love going to author visits and I'll ask a couple kids what animal they think it is. And, um, it's so fun to see what kids are coming up with. Yeah. And some of them know, obviously, you know, okay, that's the giraffe. And that's, I wanted there to be. But you have to.
Matthew: That is a giraffe. Yes. Manatee.
Kari: Because it's easier.
Matthew: Yes. Yes. And easier, easier depending, right? Some of these animals are going to be easier because you're in this part of the world and you encounter them a lot, but they're not easy for a kid here because you never see that animal. That, I thought to me, was what was really working on an interesting level is when I had a kid say, we have that animal India.
We have that animal, animal wherever. We saw this at the zoo. That game, I was like, Oh, we're working on another level here when you're playing the game of not just greatest hits animals, but also these are familiar to me because I'm from here or to me because I have this lived experience. That was a really powerful thing for me.
Kari: Oh, good. I'm so glad to hear that because I really did. I wanted to make sure. I mean, we have a diverse animal kingdom. I wanted to make sure that, I mean, these, there's so many cool insects and invertebrates alone that could fill these books, but I, but there, there needs to be a mammal. There has to be a, a reptile and an amphibian.
I want there to be lots to talk about for kids that are, um, learning about all these different animals. So, yeah.
Matthew: Yeah, good. I'm so glad. Were you a nonfiction reader as a kid? I say that because these books We always want our kids to be reading nonfiction, and there doesn't need to be a hook, but when you're making a book about animals, which is probably almost always the most popular circulating book for us, which is great, um, I want to add new animal books to my collection every year, but they need to be new in a way that they are showing something different, whether it's the format is slightly different, the appeal, the voice, something needs to be slightly different.
Are you familiar with Jess Keating has that wonderful series that started with Pink is for Blobfish? Oh yeah, of course. I'm having deja vu because some of the things I'm telling you, I'm realizing, I said this to Jess too, that it was your layout, whether that was you, the editor, or a combination, it's, it's, It's very thoughtfully laid out because it's, it's, my eyes know where to go and I naturally know what to read first.
And then on the other side, as a teacher, I can be like, what do you think the author wants us to read first? How do you know that? Well, this text was written a little bigger or this text was in a standout color or something like that. So it allows us to play book editor as well, which is a really clever thing, but it strikes me that it is layout, especially in the animal nonfiction space that causes us to, to want to update our books and get new books because the, again, the, the, the pictures are more striking or, um, there's, there's, there's a hook that causes us to make connections between animals that we wouldn't have made before.
And so for me, I've shared this on the pod before, but my connection is I was a nonfiction reader as a kid and it was of Seymour Simon books, because Seymour Simon wrote narrative nonfiction and I didn't know that books could be like that, and if you recall any of his books, they always follow the same format.
It was text on one page, but it was a full picture on the other. I don't think I ever really did read any of his books front to back, but I always did start and I liked the voice and I would look at those full pictures. So that's what I'm teeing up for you, Kari, is, is were you a nonfiction reader as a kid first?
And then I want to talk about what types of kids I feel like this is drawing in.
Kari: I read everything as a kid. I Oh, good for
Matthew: you.
Kari: Yeah, I mean, I, I have memories of, uh, reading, well, one of my favorite books was from the Scholastic, like the weekly book or, or not weekly book order. Monthly book order. Book order, yes.
Oh, that was just like the best day when those, I mean, I love just, you know, paging through that and making a plan and ordering. Um, and then, um. When they would arrive, I, I remember receiving a show of hands, which is an illustrated sign language manual. And I just, I loved that. And, um, I, I still have it.
It's up on my shelves. And, uh, yeah. And, uh, I also loved Coco's kitten, which is about Coco, the gorilla. Yeah. There's a theme here, but I loved sign language when I was a kid. Wonderful. I, yes, I. I know I checked out lots of all types of books. Um, my mom also, we still laugh about, I loved this self help section of the library.
It was the series. I don't remember what it is, what, what it was. I've kind of looked for it since then, uh, like on, on the internet to see if I could find it, but I would check out a big stack of with. You know, they were, they were to help kids that were going through tough things like, why did grandma die?
And why does daddy drink so much? And these themes that are really heavy. And I would take home a big stack of these. And my mom, you know, she kind of wanted to tell the librarians like, she's okay. She's just, Curious and checking out all
Matthew: the books too. You're reading all of these windows, all these window books.
Kari: Yeah, I think I was just trying to understand and, and, um, you know, a way to understand and, and find more compassion for people that were needing those books.
Matthew: A safe way to understand.
Kari: Yes, yes, absolutely. So yeah, I, I read all sorts of nonfiction as a kid, um, and fiction. I loved it all. I still love it all.
Matthew: I feel like I hear, because I know a little bit about your, your, your background profession. I feel like I hear a connection to Ode to Grapefruit. It's a different narrative voice as we would expect, but can you tell me more about building this story around really a moment for James Earl Jones's life and that connection to that subject matter.
I'd love to hear a little bit about this book and when does it come out?
Kari: It's out July 30th.
Matthew: So as of this record, it'll be out in a week. Yes.
Kari: This book is really special to me. Um, I started this in 2016. I'm a speech pathologist and I worked in the schools, worked in a private practice. I had been sharing James Earl Jones's story with many of my, the kids I worked with.
I primarily worked with kids who stutter, um, when a private practice. And so we did a whole star Wars unit. And, um, I often talked about celebrities who stutter just as. This, um, touch point of, look, you know, this is this person's experience. Here's this person's experience. Your experience will be your own.
And, um, so it was such, it was such a special story. And I went to an SCBWI, uh, meeting about writing nonfiction. And I just thought, gosh, this really. James Earl Jones really his story needs to be out there. It's such a powerful one. Um, this iconic voice that he was silent for eight years of his childhood.
And as a person who's, he's still, he considers himself a person who stutters. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. Um, and so, yeah, so I knew, yeah, this has a very different narrative voice. Um, I started out writing it pretty, in a pretty straightforward manner. Um, Over the course of writing this, five editors have been interested in this, and I've done revisions with different editors.
And, um, the third editor said, you really need to rewrite this in verse. And at first I just was like, what? I couldn't possibly, but it makes so much sense that it's written in, in that style because of the themes of poetry that are in this. Um, because ultimately that's helped him find his voice. Um, and.
You know, I will say I was, I struggled at the beginning of whether I should be the person to even write this book, um, and why. And, um, ultimately, I know stuttering is, it's underrepresented in, in literature. It's, it's misrepresented in, um, uh, much of our pop culture. And I just knew that I would, you know, do any extra work necessary to, uh, get this story into hands of readers.
And so I, I hope, I hope it resonates with, with kids who stutter and kids who want to know more about stuttering. And, um, yes, I, I'm thrilled that Brian is working on it because he, his illustrations just really, um, bring it to another level, I think.
Matthew: Well, I can, I can tell from your response, the care you wanted to take with this, not only because of who you were representing and also, uh, what children you were picturing all those years of working with those kids and seeing them in this connection, but also, uh, yeah, I get it.
I get, I get it. And I also think that choosing such a narrow focus of poetry and childhood and quiet confidence and truly finding, finding your voice through your voice. I love, I love that therapy has helped me understand I am the answer to everything I need.
Kari: Yes. Um,
Matthew: and that's not at all that I don't need other people, but that it's all in me. I might need other people to help me get it out of me or to help shine it, reflect it in me, but that it's in me and you're.
Your story highlights a moment like that for James Earl Jones, and that's, it's beautiful.
Kari: Thank you. Thank you so much. I, I'm just so thrilled to see it finally, almost in this world. Oh, it will be.
Matthew: Yeah, it will be. That's great. Yes. All right. Well, well, why don't I give you a chance to speak directly to those readers that we keep bringing up, which is, I think all of us listening to this show.
I know whenever I sit down to talk with any of you, uh, I really do always think directly of the person I'm speaking with, in this case, you and, and how their work is impacting. my readers. And so I want to give you a chance to speak directly to my readers, uh, because I do share these messages with them, but also to all readers.
So Kari, I'll see a library full of children tomorrow or soon. Is there a message I can bring to them from you?
Kari: Oh, thank you for asking me. I would love to encourage them to be curious in the library and, and, uh, the, the big world around us. And I think that really helps us to understand each other and, um, connect, make connections.
OUTRO
Matthew: Thank you to Kari Lavelle for joining me on The Children’s Book Podcast.
You can pick up your own copy of the Butt or Face? books (Sourcebooks) or Ode to Grapefruit: How James Earl Jones Found His Voice (Alfred A. Knopf Books for Young Readers) wherever books are found. Consider supporting independent bookstores by shopping through Bookshop.org. You can also use my affiliate link by clicking on the book’s name in our show notes. I highly recommend checking out the audiobooks! Both are available through Libro.fm and you can support independent bookstores in the process!
Our podcast logo was created by Duke Stebbins (https://stebs.design/).
Our music is by Podington Bear.
Podcast hosting by Libsyn.
You can support the show and buy me a coffee at matthewcwinner.com or by clicking the link in the show notes.
And on that note…
Be well. And read on.
End Of Episode
Comments