Expanding the Heart’s Capacity with Matthew Burgess and Cátia Chien

Matthew Burgess and Cátia Chien, author and illustrator of Fireworks (Clarion Books), join Matthew to talk about becoming a mirror for feelings and experiences in their ode to a summer day.

Listen along:

About the book: Fireworks written by Matthew Burgess; illustrated by Cátia Chien. Published by Clarion Books.

Fireworks is a sparkling picture book from the award-winning team of Matthew Burgess and Cátia Chien, highlighting the simple delights of a steamy July day in the city as two siblings eagerly anticipate a spectacular fireworks display.

POP!

As a hot day sizzles into evening, everyone on stoops and sidewalks looks skyward on this special summer night—the Fourth of July! Words and art blossom into flowers of fire across the sky, making this a perfect read for firework enthusiasts in cities and suburbs everywhere.

More:

Visit Matthew Burgess online at matthewjohnburgess.com 

Visit Cátia Chien online at catiachien.com 

Learn more about Boyds Mills and their upcoming programs by visiting www.boydsmills.org. 

Transcript:

NOTE: Transcript created by Descript. I've attempted to clean up any typos, grammatical errors, and formatting errors where possible.

Catia:  One of the most exciting parts about Lunar New Year is not the, the firecrackers that happened, you know, in parades, but was the moments when my brother, who's seven years older than me, my sister's two years older, I'm the baby. We would, um, my brother would somehow get ahold of these firecrackers that I am sure were borderline, not okay for him to have.

But we would then climb up, you know, 'cause my grandfather had a building, um, lived in the top part of a building and, um, we would get to the rooftop and he would. Set up these fireworks and um, and it was just, it, you know, I just remember just feeling this sense of wonder and awe that something like that could be created.

Matthew: That is the voice of Cátia Chien, illustrator of Fireworks (Clarion Books), written by Matthew Burgess and winner of the 2026 Randolph Caldecott Medal for the most distinguished American picture book for children. 

Welcome back to the Children’s Book Podcast, where we celebrate the books and creators who help young readers feel seen, supported, and understood. This episode is brought to you in partnership with Boyds Mills, positively impacting kids by amplifying the voices of storytellers who inspire children to become their best selves.

I’m your host, Matthew Winner—teacher, librarian, writer, and a fan of kids.

Matthew Burgess was on the podcast last April to share Words with Wings and Magic Things, his book of poetry beautifully illustrated by Doug Salati, but this is my first time meeting Cátia and my goodness did it feel like a conversation years in the making. Actually, the call was several months in the making from when Matthew first reached out. Schedule conflicts abound and it turns out that the three of us are a little hard to pin down. But when we do, there’s fireworks. Get it?

Here are a few things I learned in this conversation that I think you’ll enjoy: 

NUMBER ONE: Leading with feeling. This is a sentiment that comes up over and over again in this conversation and one that’s really easy to detect when you read Fireworks. If you’re already familiar with the book, you’re going to feel this affirmed over and over. And if you’re new to the book, this will no doubt influence your read of the story and how you allow it to move you.

NUMBER TWO: Matthew talks about writing this manuscript from something of a trance state, as though the manuscript just came out of him each time he sat to write and it was his job to listen to the story and to capture it down on paper. I think it’s cool to know that sometimes a bit of big magic happens when we write. Writing stories is always work, but sometimes it’s a little of something else as well. 

And NUMBER THREE: Vulnerability is a strength. Cátia moved me with this sentiment and sharing how it shows up in her art-making process over and over. That vulnerability reads like honesty on the page.

So, a little about Fireworks (Clarion Books) from the publisher:

“Fireworks is a sparkling picture book highlighting the simple delights of a steamy July day in the city as two siblings eagerly anticipate a spectacular fireworks display.

POP!

As a hot day sizzles into evening, everyone on stoops and sidewalks looks skyward on this special summer night—the Fourth of July! Words and art blossom into flowers of fire across the sky, making this a perfect read for firework enthusiasts in cities and suburbs everywhere.”

Get cozy, however you are listening. And enjoy!

Please welcome Matthew Burgess and Cátia Chien to the Children’s Book Podcast.

Matthew B: Hi, my name is Matthew Burgess and I am the author of Fireworks. I also am a teacher. I'm a professor at Brooklyn College, and for many years I taught poetry in New York City public schools. 

Catia: Wonderful. My name is Catia Chen and I'm the illustrator of Fireworks and I am the mom to a really vivacious, adventurous 8-year-old.

And yeah. 

Matthew: Oh, Catia. Eight year olds are so fun. [00:01:00] 

Catia: They are so fun. 

Matthew: What a great time. Second grade, right? Yeah, 

Catia: he's my, oh, 

Matthew: they're so fun. 

Catia: He's my hero. I love him so much. It's the best. 

Matthew: I love hearing you come on and share about your person in that way. Welcome. And also on record, Catia, congratulations on your Cal Deco recognition.

What an incredible honor I'm sure to receive. But also, do you, did you feel all of children's literature rooting for you going into this? I felt that it was cool. 

Catia: It was actually really, it. It's amazing because I think one of the things that I and Matthew both, we were tasking ourselves with is this capacity to hold all of it.

Because we didn't want to feel like we were waiting and holding our breath to find out on the other side to then celebrate because there was so much support leading up to it that. Being in the moment meant that I could [00:02:00] actually say thank you and have gratitude for those moments too. And I think that there's something to be said about expanding the heart's capacity for that and moment.

And then and so we definitely, we were very much a giddy for the respond and the. The excitement around it. And also the rollercoaster ride is very real. You go up and down as you are going through that Sunday, that moment. So yeah. Yeah, it was very good.

We felt it. 

Matthew: Terrific. As I'm catching you on this day of recording at this time, I would love to actually, before we go any further, ask you Matthew, what is giving you hope today? 

Matthew B: I love that question. This week I would say that I have been getting hope from Chloe Jao, the director of hamnet and other amazing films.

I. I, for the last few months I've been listening [00:03:00] to Chloe talk about art and the creative process and directing and working with people and creating spaces where people can make things together. And I really feel like I've been finding this kind of hero, this kind of this incredible contemporary artist whose work I admire so much, but who's able to speak with.

Such clarity and profundity about art. And Catia I know shares this admiration for her and we've been. Sending podcast interviews back and forth with each other and sharing our admiration for this person. And then a few days ago three days ago, I got to see Chloe Joo speaking at Berlin Na Film Festival.

I snagged one ticket. I was very lucky to snag a ticket and I got to beat in the audience and. Just listening to someone who's making art that is so profound and moving but also speak about it in a spiritual [00:04:00] way without any apology, just with such presence to speak about the creative process in that way is giving me hope.

And I think I was thinking about why, and part of the reason is that. When we're confronted with such horrors, like in, in a particular historical moment like we're in now, to feel connected to a lineage of artists and creative people and people who make things and tell stories across time. Gives, can give you courage, it can like, give you heart and like inspiration to maybe contribute something too to that conversation that, takes place across time.

And so when I saw her speaking, I then was walking out and I looked over and I saw a cluster of people. I was like, oh wait, are they getting autographs? And so I just walked over there and Chloe had come out and so I got to actually meet her. And and here's the thing about the hope part is [00:05:00] that like I immediately texted Catia with a photo of me and Chloe Dow.

It was like the serendipities, these serendipities give me hope. 'cause it just feels something else is at work, something else is at play. And especially when you can share that with another person who's a dear friend and collaborator like that, this week has been a hopeful thing. 

Matthew: I'm so glad that we found ourselves talking this week when that happened.

That's terrific. And I love the. Acknowledgement of what it means to not just hold that hope, but to share it with someone else who you know, it will resonate with perhaps in just that same frequency. That's terrific. Catia, as I find you today, what's giving you hope? 

Catia: I think that Matthew speaks so beautifully about it.

I can really resonate with what he shared in that, it does. It's hard to not have hope when you see love that keeps showing up in this way. And I [00:06:00] do think that, there was a time in my life too where I felt like the parts of me that were vulnerable, the parts of me that perhaps.

Had been pushed into the shadows because I felt that I had gotten either remarks or, hurt in some way. And, we then put away parts of ourselves thinking that the. The world is not ready for them. And then but to hear someone like Chloe, like what Matthew's talking about being an artist and then seeing somebody shine so fully, I think it's and understand that your strength is your vulnerability and that the parts of you that.

Perhaps you thought, oh, I can't show that part. I can't talk about that. And then when you do talk about it, you become a mirror to all the people that perhaps are afraid to show themselves and now are able to then step into the light with you. And it's such a brave act and I think so as an artist, I think, both Matthew and I really.[00:07:00] 

I felt so, enlivened by that for, by her and by her, what she represents and who she, how she talks about art for. So I think for me it just, it's an act of love. All of that's an act of love. And so it's creating books. So it's making this podcast. So it is this gift that we wanna give to the world.

These are small acts of kindness. And also the other thing that also gives me a lot of hope is forgiveness and. And allowing people to change their minds. We know that came up recently in the news. Like just the idea of we can see people getting caught up and then we can say, Hey, let me just stay here because I know that I believe in you and I know that things can change.

Something like, that's really moving to me as well. 

Matthew: Yeah. Yeah. That's. That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. It's funny the thing currently giving me hope that has stayed with [00:08:00] me is also from an artist. We I think are lucky enough that when Amy, she took her art down from DC from the National Art Gallery, she brought it to the Baltimore Museum of Art, and so the American Sublime has been on display, including the beautiful.

Portrait she did of the trans woman, and as well as all of these other beautiful captures of individuals. And it's, it was beautiful to, to feel like touring that exhibit. Somehow gave me a photo album of faces that I can carry around with. And see on the faces of the children that I'm teaching and see in the faces of the people I interact with and know that the work that she put in to capture those individuals was intentional.

And as a person viewing that art for me to feel like [00:09:00] she, she did such a effective job of introducing us to that person and allowing us to connect with them through her work. It was great. But I digress. We are here to talk about fireworks and I realize, Matthew, that there's probably a couple of people listening that have yet to come across this book.

So would you mind, I know it's been out for a little while and I know it's now getting a lot of attention even more so because of the recognition, but would you mind sharing a brief book talk of fireworks for readers, really, of all ages? 

Matthew B: Sure. I'd love to. So I think of fireworks as an ode to a summer day.

It's, on one level it's a story of two siblings who are living with their grandmother in the city. They have a series of small adventures from waking up in the morning to going to bed at night, and one of these adventures is in the title. So of course, going up to [00:10:00] the rooftop and seeing a fireworks display and watching the fireworks explode in the sky over the city and seeing it reflected in the river and feeling all of those kaboom.

But our book is also a celebration of those childhood summer days when you're freewheeling from one thing to another and you're so in the moment that you don't even think about time passing or what's coming next. You're just in it and you're having fun and you're feeling completely alive. And so as a picture book.

I think fireworks is designed to give you that experience vicariously so that you can open it up in the winter and you can, have that feeling of a summer day and that both words and pictures are pulling you into this sensory vicarious experience. Like that summer is like lifting off out of the pages.

Matthew: Catia, can you remember first receiving the manuscript for fireworks? I recognize it's must have been years ago at [00:11:00] this point. Do you remember any first impressions from it? I know some illustrators have talked about their connection to the manuscript being why they say yes or their ability to start picturing it being why they say yes.

What's your story about connecting to fireworks? 

Catia: The first so I had a pretty immediate response when I first read the manuscript. I immediately started missing my sister because it took me back to a time when we were kids in Brazil. Those long summer days of exploring. The neighborhood together. And it's the kind of thing where you start with two people yourself and myself and my sister.

And then before you know it, through the end of the day, you have gathered a whole team of friends because everyone start playing together. And where I lived in Brazil, I lived in a little it's a condominium of. 15 apartment buildings with a park in the middle.

And it was a kind of thing where, and I don't, it's hard to think about that kind of childhood today, where my mom would just [00:13:00] say, go outside and play.

And then we would go outside and then play in the park and then just getting to all kinds of things that you get into as kids. And then one thing again, it's you are outside of time, like what Matthew was talking about. So it really brought me back to that memory and also the kaboom and the idea of illustrating pyrotechnics.

It just was beautiful and so immediately I thought, oh, there's something emotional here that I wanna follow, and I really want 

Matthew: Matthew, I. I am no stranger to how it feels like you naturally express yourself poetically through poetry and also in a way that feels rich in imagery, in feelings, in text that once us to feel the, those experiences with you, is that how this book first came together?

Or maybe even what. Compelled you to write this [00:14:00] manuscript at all was just the feelings you have written such a beautiful manuscript that, that I think at least when this reader read the book, felt so much like Catia, I'm gonna say it because it goes along with your art. It felt like I had little fireworks of memories popping up in me because of your page turns because of the vibrance of your art.

Matthew's. Beats meters in his manuscript were able then to pop up in, in me as I was reading it, and it was very moving and overwhelming, much like watching a fireworks display. So compliments to you, Catia as well. But Matthew, how did this manuscript take hold for you? 

Matthew B: I think. When I've written something that I'm really connected with, I think that most of the time I'm in a kind of trance when I'm writing it.

And what I mean by that, that might sound a little crazy or something, but what I mean is [00:15:00] that when I'm writing it, I'm like fully inhabiting. The feeling and it's writing itself. And this doesn't happen all the time. It's hard to achieve that. But in this case, I felt like I was tapping into my own childhood summers.

And so I was I guess what you do is you conjure those memories. And then also I moved to New York City. In my twenties and I moved to the Lower East side, which is where this book was set. Like when I wrote it, when I was in the trance of writing it, it was set in the lower east side of Manhattan.

And and then when Catia read it, I remember we had conversations, I don't know if Catia if you remember this, but you were like. Can it be in Chinatown? And I was like that's five minutes, a five minute walk from where it was set in my mind, absolutely. Of course, but I think that it was the convergence of those two memory pools [00:16:00] rushing in together and and the writing was coming out of that. It's almost I was writing fully in the moment of feeling all the memories of the things that I'm recording. So it was both a story.

I was conscious that it was not me, but I was of course writing from those very personal experiences. 

Matthew: I, I think it's a great note for writers listening to be able to, or creatives listening generally to be able to. Allow yourself the release of just falling into your memory or falling into what it is you're writing.

And perhaps maybe I'm intuiting, not worrying so much about what gets onto the page, but rather trying to dictate from that, that, that place of transcendence what it is you're experiencing in that mental space. 

Matthew B: Absolutely. I think this is. Where one of the places where Kati and I connect creatively is that we both [00:17:00] are very sensitive.

We both have deep sensitivity, and I think it's, I think it's really a, about feeling leading and and there's a trust. I don't wanna speak for you Katia, but I'll pass the baton. Basically, I feel like there's a trust that if you go into that. Place that space of feeling deeply that you create from that place and then what you make tends to be more alive and potentially transmit some of that feeling to the reader.

Catia: Yeah, that's, yeah, exactly. I, and I know that when you and I talked about, the making of the art for this book that, for that I might have shared with you that I didn't do it on, in I didn't follow the linear narrative. Like I, I definitely follow the emotional. Threads first.

And so I didn't it wasn't made in order, like my images were not made in order. I initially, I just followed what [00:18:00] was the emotional thread that would bubble up and want to, and these were questions that were asked. A lot of times like books have questions and. And those, not all those questions get answered, but there's something in the process of holding onto the questions that create the emotional tone that is needed to get close to the answering of them.

So something like, for the book, I would say something like, a question would be like, what does sound look and feel like? How do you, how does, how do you, capture heat visually. What is, you know what is this sound of fireworks sharp? And then in that way, how do you capture that, that not just visually, but also emotionally.

And so yeah, the process is really intuitive. And it's not just story, it's not just a narrative. Piece is actually an emotional piece more than anything. So for me, yeah, my [00:19:00] process is really intuitive when I work on books and for fireworks, it came out really intuitively in that way.

Matthew: How did you find the color palette, the materials that you were using? The materials Look. Similar, the, your books have a great, I as a non-art I tend to describe things as, it looks like I can touch them and feel them, and I like that. I like the feeling of somebody made this and I can feel it, and I can feel the artist's hand on that is maybe the best way I can express it.

But how did finding the art. Go for you. I love that you're wearing a shirt today that looks like the colors of the end paper. It's so joyous. But I also love that your compositions for this book feel. Like there you perhaps challenging yourself, but also us challenging the reader to continue to view this [00:20:00] experience from as many different perspectives as possible.

Viewing it close, viewing it literally inside out, and also viewing it from afar and seeing the context with which everything is happening. I would love to hear a little bit more, if you don't mind, about. The physical act of making the art for this book. 

Catia: Yeah. I think this has been a little bit of a, my approach since the Town of Turtle where I started to really experiment with different materials and it's been really generative for me to not be stuck with, stuck on mastering a technique, but instead to open it up to experimentation and to play.

And it allows for the book to find. The right medium that will tell the right the story in it. And so the way that I start any book, and the same with fireworks, is I go to an art store and I browse the aisles not really knowing and deciding what [00:21:00] materials I might use. There's something sometimes it's a certain texture that calls to me, whether it is, and I have certain ideas in my mind of what visuals.

I am needing to make sure I I bring out such as, like such, in this book in particular, it was the idea of something with the fireworks, like the contrasting elements needed to be really clear. And so by holding onto that loosely walking through the aisles of an art store, picking out different materials and then going home and then laying it all out, and then starting to experiment and play.

And I ended up having some scratch board some paper cutouts that I used pastel pencils, paint, and it's much like the way that I play and I draw with my son and it just said it's. You need the chaos and the mess, but you also need the discipline, right? You need the part of you that's then understand that this is serving the purpose of a narrative, [00:22:00] and then you bring it together so you have a, I have two minds.

I have two parts of the process, which is, one is keeping it as open as possible, and one is where I, I. Hang it onto a story that works. So a narrative visual story, a page turn. There's certain elements that dictate like you mentioned, perspectives, in order to keep the attention of the reader and then the eye from right to left to left to right page turn.

Like all those little em elements are behind the scenes. But the real, like mo the real engine is the emotions and the play. So that's how it comes across. 

Matthew: You are such a talented artist and being able to hear how you communicate or reflect on how you make that art. I'm gonna walk away from this thinking for the rest of the week about play and discipline, being in relation with one another.

Thank you for [00:23:00] how this manuscript spoke to you and how then you spoke to all of us through the art you made. It's quite a special book. 

Catia: Thank you. It's so sweet. 

Matthew: I it, our time is up. I don't like it. I don't like when our time is up. But I wanna ask you a really quick question because I can't help but asking this question.

Matthew Catia, do you have a special firework memory or just a This is the place. Where fireworks really moved or meant something to me and my life and my childhood in recently. Matthew, you talked about being in New York and writing from that place, but do you have a fireworks memory that was just where it took hold with you?

Matthew B: Yeah. When I, I think about summer fireworks from childhood and how it always felt. Really exciting, like you're inside of night in a special way, in a way that almost [00:24:00] felt dangerous. But in overpowering. And, I like, there's this moment in the story where it's like at, after it's all over and there's this line like.

Hands hugs that kind of shiver. This moment where after the explosive intensity, the finale and everything passes. There's this quiet you feel and hear the quiet differently and there's you return to each other and 

yeah, 

Matthew B: there, there's that softness. I don't know why this is coming up. I, this was, I wasn't thinking of answering it this way.

But there's some magic about the after part. And how everyone shared this experience of being like, wow. And, bam, right over your head, and then you softly come back to one another and in silence. I don't know. That's what just came up. And then the other thing would be when I moved to New York in my twenties and I lived in this crazy building and the door was broken to the roof and fireworks happened all the time.

Like [00:25:00] you didn't know when they were gonna happen, but if you. In the summer, we didn't have an ac. You'd hear fireworks out the window and then like we'd run up to the silver tire rooftop and like we'd see the fireworks in the city line, the New York City line, and that always just felt like magic.

It wasn't even the ones that you were anticipating, it's just oh, there's fireworks tonight. 

Matthew: Yeah. 

Matthew B: You'd go up and you see them blooming around the city. 

Matthew: What about special fireworks memory for you? Katia? 

Catia: So lunar New Year is a big thing in my household, and so when I was growing up a lot of times we would end up being Taiwan for that.

And one of the most exciting parts about Lunar New Year is not the firecrackers that happened, in parades, but was the moments when my brother, who's seven years older than me, my sister's two years older, I'm the baby. We would my brother would somehow get ahold of these firecrackers that I am sure were borderline, not okay for him to have.

But we would then [00:26:00] climb up, 'cause my grandfather had a building lived in the top part of a building and we would get to the rooftop and he would. Set up these fireworks and and it was just, it, I just remember just feeling this sense of wonder and awe that something like that could be created.

That here we are children able to have that experience. So yeah, it was a very more of an intimate. Kind of memory of Wound and New Year in that way. 

Matthew: Thank you both for sharing those memories. That's lovely. I wanna close our time together by bringing you back to the students that I see throughout my week and really to all of the children that are reading your books and connecting with you through them.

Matthew, I'll see a library full of children tomorrow morning. Is there a message that I can bring to them from you?

Matthew B: Yeah, I think I always hesitate to say the message [00:27:00] directly 'cause I worry about preaching to kids and how often, old people are telling them what to do. I think one of the things I admire about kids is that they have that spark and the kids of a certain age, like just have the spark and we as grownups.

Admire them and can look to them because we, so much of what we need to do is maintain that spark, that love of life, and that aliveness that they just naturally possess.

When it comes to writing and drawing and making things, it's never about perfection or avoiding mistakes. It's always about freedom and play and seeing what happens. So if there's a distilled message that I would wanna say, it's always that. It's always, we read books, we read stories, [00:29:00] and it often activates us to tell our own stories that we turn from the page from reading a great story.

And the author, the illustrator, they're always inviting you to tell your own stories. They're always inviting you to make your own art. And for us as writers and artists. We always wanna say to you, don't approach that process. Being afraid of making mistakes. Always stay loose, stay curious, experiment, and just see what happens.

That's how we do it. So just keep playing on the page and experimenting and see what happens. Stay loose and stay curious. 

Matthew: Perfect. Catia, I'll see a library full of children tomorrow morning. Is there a message I can bring to them from you? 

Catia: Yeah. I definitely agree with Matthew in that the world doesn't need your perfection.

The world needs you. And I wanna tell you that I believe in you, I support you, and your imagination is powerful. And I also wanna give [00:30:00] you, the chorus of a song that I love that I sometimes sing with my son, and it's it's called Anthem by Leonard Cohen. And I'll just read the lines from the chorus for you.

It's ring the bells that still can ring. Forget your perfect offering. There's a crack, a cracking, everything. That's how the light gets in. Ring the bells that still can ring. Forget your perfect offering. There's a crack, a cracking, everything. That's how the light gets in. And. So my message is just to say, don't be afraid to make your mark in the world.

Again we need you to be who you are. You are a light, a bright light already as you are.