Protecting Our Joy with Alicia D. Williams

Alicia D. Williams, author of Nani and the Lion (Atheneum/Caitlyn Dlouhy Books), illustrated by Anna Cunha, joins Matthew to talk about protecting our joy through what we cultivate and what we believe.

Listen along:

About the book: Nani and the Lion by Alicia D. Williams; illustrated by Anna Cunha. Published by Atheneum/Caitlyn Dlouhy Books.

From Newbery Honor and Coretta Scott King - John Steptoe Award winner Alicia D. Williams comes a rhythmic picture book about an irrepressible little drummer determined to outwit the grumpy, noise-hating Lion.

Nani loves to drum. Ba-dum, ba-dum, ba-dum. Her music captures the sounds of life, rustles the forest leaves, rouses all the critters, and never fails to get the villagers up and dancing, dancing, dancing. But one day, they’re too scared to dance. Lion, king of the land, has outlawed noisemaking of any kind. The villagers beg her to stay quiet.

Nani’s heart pounds with fear, but her love for drumming beats more loudly. To keep playing her music and bringing joy to her village, Nani must stand up to the biggest bully around armed with only courage, quick thinking, and her drum.

More:

Visit Alicia D. Williams online at www.aliciadwilliams.com 

Other helpful links:

• Alicia D. Williams at Boyds Mills

• Alicia D. Williams Scholarship - The Alicia D. Williams Scholarship provides funds to support a Boyds Mills scholarship for a single parent. As a single parent, Alicia knows how hard it can be to find the time and space to get writing accomplished. This scholarship is meant to support a single writer by providing an opportunity to focus on their writing—whether through a Boyds Mills workshop or course, or a Personal Retreat at Boyds Mills.

• Whole Novel Workshop: An In-Person Retreat for Novelists (October) - This intensive, transformative Whole Novel Workshop offers writers the rare opportunity to have the entire draft (up to 85,000 words) of a novel read by faculty, with detailed written feedback and two private consultations provided.

Learn more about Boyds Mills and their upcoming programs by visiting www.boydsmills.org.

Transcript:

NOTE: Transcript created by Descript. I've attempted to clean up any typos, grammatical errors, and formatting errors where possible.

1112 Alicia D. Williams

Alicia:  But I have whole dramatization with the folk tale. And they, I had teachers say, they're on the playground making up chance. They're on the playground. They're creating games because it's so folk tales do that. It lends their imagination. That's the beginning of writer's workshop. Now they are storytellers.

They are storytellers now. And so now don't make them write that down. Make them become oral storytellers.

Matthew: That is the voice of Alicia D. Williams, author of Genesis Begins Again, a Newbery Honor Book, The Talk, a Coretta Scott King Award-winning picture book illustrated by Briana Mukodiri Uchendu, and of Jump at the Sun: The True Life Tale of Unstoppable Storycatcher Zora Neale Hurston, which was illustrated by Jacqueline Alcántara. Alicia’s newest book is an original folktale called Nani and the Lion (Atheneum/Caitlyn Dlouhy Books), and it is illustrated by Anna Cunha.

Welcome back to the Children’s Book Podcast, where we celebrate the books and creators who help young readers feel seen, supported, and understood. This episode is brought to you in partnership with Boyds Mills, positively impacting kids by amplifying the voices of storytellers who inspire children to become their best selves.

I’m your host, Matthew Winner—teacher, librarian, writer, and a fan of kids.

Alicia is fantastic company and her love of folklore overflows throughout our time together. 

Here are a few of the things I learned in this conversation: 

NUMBER ONE: Alicia is a protector of joy. She fights for it. She aligns her life around it. She exudes it. Joy.

NUMBER TWO: Alicia wanted her daughter to grow to be brave, bold, and fierce, but knew she couldn’t hold this belief unless she also held it for herself. And so she worked to bring about those very qualities in herself through how she stepped through life that day and each day forward.

And NUMBER THREE: Alicia's focus on collectivism and bettering the world through shared work can be summed up in this beautiful mantra that she shared: We cultivate and we believe.”

So, a little about Nani and the Lion (Atheneum/Caitlyn Dlouhy Books) from the publisher:

“From Newbery Honor and Coretta Scott King - John Steptoe Award winner Alicia D. Williams comes a rhythmic picture book about an irrepressible little drummer determined to outwit the grumpy, noise-hating Lion.

Nani loves to drum. Ba-dum, ba-dum, ba-dum. Her music captures the sounds of life, rustles the forest leaves, rouses all the critters, and never fails to get the villagers up and dancing, dancing, dancing. But one day, they’re too scared to dance. Lion, king of the land, has outlawed noisemaking of any kind. The villagers beg her to stay quiet.

Nani’s heart pounds with fear, but her love for drumming beats more loudly. To keep playing her music and bringing joy to her village, Nani must stand up to the biggest bully around armed with only courage, quick thinking, and her drum.”

Here is a joy that I proudly share with you!

Please welcome Alicia D. Williams to the podcast.

Alicia: Wonderful. Hi, my name is Alicia d Williams. My pronouns is she her. I would say amazing. Alicia d Williams, because I'm feeling pretty amazing and I am the author of Nani and The Lion.

Matthew: I'm so glad you're here, Alicia. I have built a habit recently of checking in before we get started with the interview, by asking people what is giving you hope today on this day that we're crossing paths? What's giving you hope today? 

Alicia: [00:02:00] I have to start for a second and go back because I hadn't thought about this hope question, but you, your energy is so bright and so open.

There are people like you who are purposely living a life to create a better life for children and make an awareness for children and a space for children. So knowing that people like you exist not trying to be all woo oh, yes, I'm a fan of Matthew, but it's true. I, I. Filled with gratitude and hope that more teachers aren't giving up on our young people.

But before I was thinking about this hope, and I don't think of what gives me hope day by day anymore because I was at such a low point during the pandemic and during a social un shelter, social unrest that I was so close to despair. [00:03:00] And the trauma of it all, I lost myself. Now that I'm out, I fight every day.

I carve space every day to find joy. So that joy always sustains my hope. But then this question comes back around little moments like meeting people who have this energy of saying, I'm that ripple. This going to make this world, shift the energy of this world by one reader at a time, one child at a time, one audience at a time.

That gives me hope. 

Matthew: I'm glad to hear that, as we're recording this, they just had that beautiful memorial service for Reverend Jesse Jackson and Barack Obama said, it's hard to find hope today. And I think that he was our nation's leader that ran on hope. And that brings [00:04:00] me back to what you had said earlier, and I love.

I love that you said it. I love that you spoke it into truth, which is that it's hard in teaching to continue on. Education continues to be. A noble profession where we really do the way you succeed in teaching is that you really care and are committed to teaching, but there are forces that continue to conspire against us that make it harder and harder.

And you ask to what end am I willing to give of and exhaust myself for these children? It is very hard, and I will say back to you, it. Means a great deal to me and I think to all teachers to be seen, for people to know we really are out there trying our best. We really are. And it's hard. And the factors keep changing that at times can feel like [00:05:00] you're trying to make me quit.

You're trying to make me fail. I don't wanna do it, I won't do it. But it is hard. And so before recording, I said to you, it is for me. I do get to face children each day and that I do get to face authors and illustrators each night and be a bridge between

And be often a literal bridge. I'll ask you when we close about a message. I always, I've been asking for most of the life of this show about a message for children, and what I always try to make clear when I talk to folks is I bring it to them. I'd be a liar to them and to you If I didn't, I bring it to them.

Alicia, we haven't known each other for a while, but I've known Genesis begins again for a while and. When your name came up, when Boyds Mills shares the names with me each month, your name came up. I [00:06:00] was like, I know this name. And I read Nani and The Lion, and I was, I like this book, but I, there's something about this name and sure enough so I'm so glad to be putting a face to that voice that I came to know through that book.

I want to return to Genesis, but first I'd like to ask you to share. A little book talk of Nani and the Lion for so many folks that haven't encountered it yet

Alicia: are so gentle with me. And Oh I love you already. So let me go because I feel that this connection is really special and I'm glad it's happening today. Like you said, money in the lion. Yes. Way across the ocean, beyond the grasslands, beyond the trees is a village. And in this village, Liz, a little girl named Nani.

And Nani loves to drum, but every time she drums, she is [00:07:00] shushed. She's quieted out of fear because also beyond that village and the grasslands lives lying. Lion and lion does not like noise. Nani loves to drum and this brings her much joy and so she goes to place. And finally she is so much enjoyed and happiness and joy of drumming That lion wakes up and chases her, but all the way back to the village.

But Nani has to outsmart the lion to tame him. And the funny thing, I just thought it was a simple folk tale. Yeah. And the, someone reviewed it and I had saw a few reviews about lying as the Bully, and I thought, I never framed it from that lens, but I appreciate how they brought that to my attention, their interpretation of lion that he.

We have so many bullies in this world who was [00:08:00] snuff out our joy and out fear. There's so many people who don't find joy or afraid to speak on their joy because of that fear of the bully. And Nani, she tames him by doing the very thing that brings her joy and to free her it. Free the entire. Ooh, I'm giving too much away.

Matthew: I love this and I love that. I feel like I'm glimping where this story came from, right here, in your chest, right in your heart. But how did it start for you? Are you an individual that tell stories? Are you a folk teller? 

Alicia: Yes. Yes. I love love. Folk tales. 

Matthew: Cool. 

Alicia: I love Virginia Hamilton, Julius Luster, Zora Ne Hurston, Ashley Bryant, you name it.

I love folklore. And when I was introduced to them, I didn't [00:09:00] quite understand them because my palette wasn't ready. I was in college. I wasn't a reader. 

Matthew: Okay. 

Alicia: And I just wasn't ready. Hadn't been familiar with them, but when I had my daughter. The picture books came and I read them to her and I began to memorize these stories and I began to tell them to audiences, oh, 'cause I have a drama background.

And I would tell them to audiences and they would get caught up with bur rabbit thrown in the thicket. They would look as if they're right there, they'll look towards wherever. I threw a rabbit right there in the Briar Busch and I thought, gosh. Oral storytelling. It has so many wonderful BE benefits if you just do a Google search for students from building the brain, for reader comprehension, for prediction skills, all of these things, vocabulary building, but it's a connection piece with empathy.

It's a connection piece with. Using your face, your VO voice, your vocal intonations and rhythm and [00:10:00] musicality, your body. I focus you so much focus in your body. So I, during the pandemic. I was teaching at a private school and when we were assigned to come back, they tried to keep social distancing and they said, just do that thing you do.

I thought, you didn't appreciate the thing I did. I tried to do this all the time, but here we are and I'll be happy to do it. And see, I'm a teaching artist. I'm a master teaching artist. Taught by, trained by Kennedy Center Wolf Trap teaching artists as well as the Art Start Program. So with this background, I created Wonder Time for their transitional kindergartners, and I would.

Introduce a folk tale, but I would never do it with a book. I never sat and read the book. Never. I usually, I do theater of some kind. So one of my favorite mechanisms was a story box. I cr a shoe box and where did [00:11:00] this, where do you think? And I created the setting. Collaged it to the box. What do you think this takes place?

Oh. And have them generate all the ideas. How will we get there? We imaginary travel. We open our imaginations and we go to Africa and we will see everything. And then out of that shoe box. It would just, every day, you know how you as teachers like to layer every day, what is this and what is this? What do you think?

It's, and that'd be the end. And then the next day we layering on the rest of the story and I tell the story and I have them repeat. There's a little boy and how does. That. How's that drum sound? I like that. But everybody, but, and by the time we layer the story, they know all the vocabulary. They know all the dialogue, they know the setting, they know everything.

So by the time I get the book, they're telling me the story. We have created a chant, we dramatize it. You are [00:12:00] gonna be the lion who, we need trees, we need the villagers, we need this. And we and then by the time I love dancing and by the time I always have some kind of dance at the end to celebrate and then we bring 'em back down.

But I have whole dramatization with the folk tale. And they, I had teachers say, they're on the playground making up chance. They're on the playground. They're creating games because it's so folk tales do that. It lends their imagination. That's the beginning of writer's workshop. Now they are storytellers.

They are storytellers now. And so now don't make them write that down. Make them become oral storytellers. I used to do that bear going on the bear walk. Yes. We would go outside, we're gonna catch a big one. Yes, go. They knew that. And we would go and find a little, it could be a little corner around the building and Is that a cave?

They're like, ah. We would go, I'm just [00:13:00] waking up. I had a kid go home and tell their parent that the bear scratched them. I said please, you imagination. 

Matthew: That's

Alicia: so wonderful. And it's all, and that's why I wanted to write. And I thought during the pandemic, 

Matthew: yeah, 

Alicia: I am doing all of this folklore. I wonder if I can add to this cannon.

And that was my primary goal. I just wanted to pay homage to. Folklores, and I don't want this. It was folklore was such a big thing during a certain time 

Matthew: Yeah. 

Alicia: Of kid lit. And I don't want, especially now with technology and our short attention spans to let that go. I hope there'll be a revival in understanding the power of oral storytelling.

So that was part of my goal as an educator, as a writer. 

Matthew: I love that. I wanna give two things back to you. One that it, it becomes then immediately clear [00:14:00] how the voice is so grounded and established and Nani and the lion, because it's coming from a storyteller, an oral storyteller. That's amazing because then you come through my voice as I read it, because you've crafted.

Such a sturdy vessel. Any one of us can pick up this book. And as we read it, we are enchanting it, we are dramatizing it to read to children. You gift that to us through those skills. You've acquired through storytelling. I also wanted to say to you though. I have felt that connection maybe because of being a librarian and needing to read and read for my job.

Even before my job when I was a classroom teacher and I was working on my master's, it was so much reading going through this program, and that's a wonderful gift. But [00:15:00] I did, and I remember taking a storytelling course and I remember going to the local YMCA and we all had to perform a story for children.

But I, you are telling me for the first time that I can recall. This notion of coming back with children and revisiting them, and we're gonna add to this story each time. Remember that story? Let's bring us all back into it, into that world, and then add to it and explore it more. That really speaks to the folk the community aspect of it.

Here, I thought maybe my interpretation of folktales was limited and was, these are just stories that we tell, favorite stories that we tell aloud orally. I was missing the, we've built them together. We've passed them on together. We have literally passed 'em on by asking and what comes next? What's around that corner?

As you're telling me about playing on the the playground area, the outside area with children, you're inviting them to pick up the story. I'm here, I can help you with the story. You tell me what's [00:16:00] next. And in that way you are literally sowing seeds of storytellers in the future. There's. I didn't plan to go this direction with you, but there, there is so much in this attention economy competing for all of our attention.

It is certainly not just children, but I think we librarians. Asking in this profession, what is our relationship to AI and how much do we fight it, resist it, how much do we try to work with it? How much do we try to be a resource for navigating? But in that as well, we are seeing, I am seeing in my library, I'll speak just that directly, that children are not.

As drawn to long form storytelling. I still have plenty of kids reading picture books. I still have plenty of kids browsing nonfiction. I love the graphic novel format because it has made readers out of children that didn't see themselves as readers, [00:17:00] but for whatever reason, I'm not seeing them gravitating toward fiction.

So it is like I do have. Readers reading, and that's wonderful. We want readers reading, but the sustained reading, I want you to be lost in this book and have it need to be. Sometime you can get lost in a graphic novel, but that's an hour or two that you're getting lost. But to get lost in. In some work of prose where you're not, you're just not gonna move through that story as fast as maybe you want to.

I think also about the person that actually I'm reminded of the, that introduced me to Genesis begins again. I think she literally handed it to me. You're gonna know her. Is a local friend of mine, Leah Henderson.

Alicia: I love Leah. 

Matthew: Leah and I. Must have been presenting at highlights. This would've been like 2018 long before it became Boy Mills. And we carpooled up to highlights. I don't even remember [00:18:00] what the workshop was, what it was, but we were going up there together and so we did. And when you drive from Baltimore to Central pa, you got about a three and a half hour drive and wow.

Did we unpack. Our writing, what we were each working on, what contemporaries we respect in the field, what stories we're looking toward, the mentor texts, all of these. And I remember her saying, there's this book you really need to, I don't know if my copy of Genesis begins again, was even one that she handed me that she had an arc of or something I don't even remember.

It's been far too long. But I know that Leah is my bridge to you. Wonderful. 

Alicia: I ha will have to thank her for that. And I don't think at that time I really knew her. I was just learning about her. But for her to recognize something in that story 

Matthew: yes. 

Alicia: That was gonna connect to you for you to connect with your students.

I totally appreciate that. 

Matthew: Tell me about this novel, was Genesis begins again, your first published thing? It [00:19:00] was my first, whoa, I wanna know. I wanna know everything. I wanna know what brought you into writing for children, for youth and finding that voice that I know as writers, we continue to find and explore.

But also friend, you won the Newberry Honor for your debut. Oh my goodness, 

Alicia: Luke, to be honest, I said, did they read the did? Did they read the book that I wrote? 

Matthew: Oh, it was so good. 

Alicia: Impossible. I could not understand it. So I was confused and I said, sh, I'm not gonna say anything. Before they realized they made a mistake.

Matthew: No. 

Alicia: I'm so nervous about that. It's like they're gonna call me back and say, we made that mistake. But it's my journey to writing and this is why I truly appreciate when you said that we talked about hope and not giving up on our students. Because I didn't have a [00:20:00] library near me growing up and I moved around a lot.

Never had a library grow growing up, nor was there ever a bookstore, nor did we have any books in the houses. It was probably the bookmobile at that time and during the summers if I stayed with my grandmother, but I wasn't a reader. I did find Judy Bloom's Fudge Super Fudge Tales of the fourth grade.

Nothing. Yes, blubber. Which, blubber spoke to me because I was body shamed and I did find a battered copy of, I Know Why The Cage Bird Sings. Okay. I don't know where I found it, but it spoke to me because that was the first time I saw someone my color, and someone who. Was violated by someone they trusted and that pulled me into a, it spoke so much to [00:21:00] me to make sure that I didn't have shame or not have hope but other than that, I could not string words together.

My, since we moved around a lot, I didn't have a strong foundation in education and so interesting fact. When I went to college, I, the English teacher, English 1 0 1 told me I needed to get a tutor for my essays and the tutor. Eventually, after a few sessions said, he said, you know what? I can't help you.

Oh, I could not. I didn't, I have tenses. I just couldn't wait. How did I get into writing? I didn't know what I was wanting to do with my life. I jumped to. I think Michelle Obama said it first in her book that she said whatever adults thought she thought they wanted to hear to impress them. And for the longest I'd said architect, although I was horrible at math, but I loved drawing.[00:22:00] 

And it wasn't until, and I changed my changed my major three or four times, but it wasn't until I went to acting school. That I began to write monologues because I wanted to create a space for myself in the drama world, in the theater world. So I write these monologues and perform them, but I still wasn't a writer.

And then I had my daughter when I was 28, I had a daughter and I remember I had always told people. That I'm gonna write because I wanted to I didn't have a strong sense of self-esteem and I knew that when I said that, people would say, oh my gosh, I'm so proud of you, and for years so proud of you.

Eventually that high was gone because people just didn't [00:23:00] say that anymore. I didn't believe it. They didn't believe me, and I knew that I didn't want my daughter. I wanted her to be brave, bold, and fierce. I wanted her to define gender norms and stereotypes. I wanted her to believe that she could do anything, but I couldn't have this belief for her if I didn't have it for myself.

And so I wanted her to say I could do it because mommy did. And that's when I started taking writing seriously. And that, and I end up going to graduate school to learn and I'm surprised I got in so surprised and that journey, because I was in my forties and. To be honest, I still didn't have the belief that I could write a book.

I graduated with a good 80 pages and tweet, oh, that was Genesis. And I played with it. Play with it, but did not have the belief. It [00:24:00] wasn't until I came back, it was a my year anniversary, I said, I need to finish this book. I've been outta graduate school. I have student loans. I need to do something 'cause I cannot live the life I'm living.

And they want change. For myself, for my daughter I'm food stamps here. I'm a teacher assistant here, barely making it. I know I cannot live this life. And so I went back as a grad assistant and author Ann ssu. Yes. Wow. She, and I've never had her at this one-on-one faculty member. She has been part of my workshop group.

And she said to me, she said, I. I wanna read a story and I thought I was a teacher assistant for a kindergarten or kindergarten class, and I went back, I was like, oh my gosh. And Ursula wants to read my story, but it's not done. I work better with I work better with deadlines. And my teacher friend, the lead teacher said [00:25:00] Ms.

Williams, we are just gonna have to have a deadline and we are gonna celebrate with cake.

And we, I worked and worked, had met my deadline. She brought in the cake. All the kindergartners celebrated. It was such a rewarding experience. I sent it off to Anne. She read it and she said, do this, and this and that. 2015, I got an agent and I asked her, I said, why me? Everyone pine for your attention.

Everyone was wanted you. I never got to work with you, so why me? She said, when you came into this program, you didn't know anything, but you worked your butt off, which I had no idea that people were watching and taking account of who was doing the work. 

Matthew: Yes. 

Alicia: And then she said, and you are a single mother.

A single mothers need to stick together, which is why I made the Alicia Dewi and single mothers, not single mother, single guardian scholarship for boys meals. [00:26:00] But because of that, I thought, wow, you saw me. I didn't even see myself at that time, and that because I didn't believe in myself and other people believed in me.

And I finally learned. To accept that this is what I'm meant to do. That's how I got in. Long story short, but it was a long story. 

Matthew: That's amazing. I'm glad you did. And now, not only do you continue to write, but you're also part of the faculty at Boy Mills for this whole novel workshop. How's that? How's being part of that?

Alicia: I'm so lucky to have been tapped into that because one, it allows. Me to connect in a deeper way with other writers, 

Matthew: of course, 

Alicia: because writing is, of course, is so solitary, and if not, everyone gets to go to the conferences. And even if you do, it's just a quick, Hey, how are you? And you're off, but you have a week with other writers and you can go deeper.

What I love [00:27:00] about it is a selfish reason. I, these students come, whether they're emerging, published or in between, or like me, did not have the belief, but they toyed around with a man script forever. But if you get to have a one-on-one, I.

Someone, re a faculty member read your work and give you the critique, the critiques type of critiques I had when I was in graduate school, a seven to 15 page critique, and it's about getting your craft to where it needs to be, and it's done in such a gentle manner.

Matthew: Yeah. 

Alicia: I don't believe this, the, this program has never had the harshness of. This is not what you're meant to do because we cultivate and we believe that if you, I have personally believe that if the story is dropped for you, this calling, whether you are ready for it or not, it's for you. You just have to embrace it.

So they get to work one-on-one, have a zoom and meet with us. [00:28:00] But they also have a brain trust group where they get to learn how to give critiques. They get to learn how to receive feedback, which is hard. All of us, and they get to have ideas, generate ideas and bond, and some of them create wonderful writers groups from that.

But for me, my selfish reason is that I can hone into my craft by looking at someone's work and really dissecting it. I get to use my educator lens, my rightest lens, as well as the lens of working with an editor and how they give me back feedback, right? And so I get to use all of these brains and experience and bring it to this, but I will bring craft books and craft mentor texts to show the differences on what they're doing, how to make it better, take a look and give examples as well as.

Give them exercises to do. So it, as a teacher, [00:29:00] I love love teaching, and so personally, this is probably one of my favorite things to do, but I also love planting and seeds to other writers because we need more voices. We need more. We need more innovative writers to figure out how to get our young people to continue to read and bridge that gap.

And whether it's your personal experience of not wanting to read that you bring, or the one if you love to read, whether it's your love of bugs, somebody that's gonna have to be a reader for that book, and I just firmly believe it. 

Matthew: I cannot find any better place for us to wrap our conversation today than that note.

I know we're putting a pin in things. I know we're gonna, we're gonna come back to this one day, Alicia. I look forward to when we come back to this conversation again, but for now, I wanna. Bring you into my [00:30:00] space and ask that I'll see a library full of children tomorrow morning. Is there a message that I can bring to them from you?

Alicia: Yes. I want them to be like Nani, do whatever it is that makes you happy, that puts a smile on your face to keep you giggling and laughing, and you do that no matter what. There will be people. Say, maybe not now out of fear, but do not let someone else fear stop you from finding that joy. 'cause that joy is for you to hold, just like a magic little glow of light.

You take that glow of light, of joy, and you keep it and you're protected. Find a joy. Find the joy and hold onto it and do it. I am a firm believer that there's something that you're meant to do that no one else can do. That is gonna bring joy to you and joy to others.